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Amount of work that once bought an hour of light now buys 51 years of it (2017)

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Re: Amount of work that once bought an hour of light now buys 51 years of it (2017)

#331
post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Land/space are limited. I live where most on HN would consider very rural - the closest town is 600 people and a town of 20,000 is about 30 minutes from me. Even when I was buying a home back in 2011 there were basically no good plots of land for sale. What was there was about $10,000 an acre. I eventually got my house for $180,000 and it’s on 15 acres, meaning my 3,000 square foot house was basically only $30,000 wh…

> It’s unsustainable and people think you’re a racist for bringing it up so it never gets talked about. Yeah what's unsustainable is you living on 15 acres, we can build housing for everyone. > Canada built 321,000 units of housing in 2021 but is in pace to have over 500,000 immigrants this year. Given, unlike you, they need to be considered productive by the government to move to Canada, why would they not be allowe…

> Yeah what's unsustainable is you living on 15 acres, we can build housing for everyone.

Heaven forbid I live on 1/4 of the land that my parents had even though I have a far greater income. I guess I shouldn't have bought the place? Or I should somehow subdivide the lot even though it's quite narrow and hilly/forested? Fuck nature, I guess.

> Given, unlike you, they need to be considered productive by the government to move to Canada, why would they not be allowed to be here?

That was literally the point of my post, but because you didn't seem to get it: because that amount might be so high as to drive housing costs further up when people are already struggling to rent/buy a home. A government should serve its own people, first and foremost. If that means immigration helps them (as it absolutely can) - great! If it means that too much immigration instead hurts their citizens, it should be dialed back.

Re: Amount of work that once bought an hour of light now buys 51 years of it (2017)

#332
post #176

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is why I resent the laws banning incandescent lights. I consider myself an environmentalist, and am very careful about wasting electricity. I love the warm dim light from an incandescent and think it helps me fall asleep... the light from one incandescent dimmed to about 20-40W is all I need after sunset, and all I want. It's like sitting near a campfire. My house is solar powered, and I keep a window open witho…

I resent the banning of incandescent light bulbs for a practical reason: Heat. In colder regions it's been common sense to use an incandescent light bulb to keep a space heated so it's just above freezing (above 0C or 32F) during the winter months. This is to prevent things like plumbing and sensitive machinery from breaking due to ice formation. A full blown heater is generally complete overkill and impractical for…

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Re: Amount of work that once bought an hour of light now buys 51 years of it (2017)

#333
post #315

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Except when you talk to people who care about the cost of construction and food. You know what industries tend to lobby politicians for more lax immigration policies? Agricultural, food production, and construction. Why isn't the same argument being made about food? More people equals more demand, right? Shouldn't there be a commensurate increase in food costs? But people are able to mentally understand that immigran…

Food is a bit different in that we export a fair amount; it's not like we're running up against the limits of what our farmland can produce. For what it's worth I absolutely abhor the phrases "they're more willing to do that work" or "it's work that American's won't do." You're missing the last part of that sentence: for that pay. Of course costs will go up. So will pay. You're right in that in the case of food it's…

I think we probably agree on some of the broad strokes, but interpret the details differently.

Regardless about how much we export, prices are tightly coupled to supply and demand. If your theory holds, we should see a commensurate increase in cost. It doesn't matter if net exports go down unless there are effects from steep tariffs.

I agree that a large part of that many Americans are unwilling to do that work for that pay. And yet they are beneficiaries of that low-pay work in the form of low food costs. I find it particularly unsettling when those who directly benefit simultaneously demonize the immigrants who they derive some of that benefit. However, there have been studies showing that Americans underproduce migrant labor in industries like agriculture. So it's not just the pay, it the ability to produce. Similar work quotes farmers as saying they literally can't hire Americans to do the work. Unless I suppose you want to pay them salaries that risk farms being unsustainable financially. The extension of these points is if you were to hire Americans at an American wage, you get both less production and a higher cost while simultaneously risking the solvency of the farms.

I also agree that the use of an immigrant underclass is dystopian. Especially when you factor in the abuse that occurs in workplaces where employees are fearful of recourse due to their immigration status. And yet it happens and one of the often used excuses is that it's necessary to essentially subsidize a certain quality of life for Americans.

FWIW, it's usually termed "general" labor rather than "dumb" labor. You're point here seems to contradict your previous point that immigration also brings down the wages of skilled jobs. They way they do both is if they are represented in both skilled and unskilled employees.

As far as construction, this is largely region-dependent. (That's why I put the south in the original response. It's especially reliant on immigrant labor.) A rough rule of thumb is that labor is 20-40% of construction cost. Regardless, in my region, immigrants are the bulk of skilled labor as well. Again, anecdotal, but once you peel back the thin veneer, you can see how much of the American lifestyle relies on immigrant labor. And simply banning them in the hope that it increases housing availability will have many second order effects.

Re: Amount of work that once bought an hour of light now buys 51 years of it (2017)

#334

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thank you for explaining this. Normal people who are used to cooking at home see it as no big deal to whip up a simple meal. Some of the rest of us encounter insurmountable obstacles in our own kitchens. Personally, I haven't prepared a single meal at home since last October. I've been ordering delivery at an extraordinary markup. Several bad experiences last year put me permanently off home meal preparation. I've tr…

I'm very curious what your insurmountable obstacles and bad experiences with home meal preparation are. Most people can't imagine being unable to use the microwave or boil water.

For starters, I'm not incapable of nuking a frozen meal, reheating leftovers, or hard boiling eggs, things like that. Those are backup strategies still employed.

It's difficult to explain succinctly what the barriers are, and without getting in a big debate about my abilities and limits. But in a nutshell:

Start with intractable problems with pest control. If I eat delivery, I get no bugs. If I prepare fresh meals, the cockroaches, gnats and other pests immediately descend. I can't avoid standing water/dirty dishes, and so the longer I try my hand in the kitchen, the worse the bugs get. I'm a renting tenant and 100% reliant on the landlord to do the pest control, and it's ineffective. If I want a deep treatment, I have to shut down my entire kitchen, tear it apart, and put it back together afterwards. So I am roundly cursed for even trying this.

Fitness - I'm not a young man anymore and as a beginner, my time in the kitchen is very inefficient. I could spend 2-3 hours at a time for one meal in a day. I couldn't sleep or rest enough to make it up, and living with this deficit took its toll, especially if stopping to rest meant I wouldn't eat or empty the dishes from the sink, and we're back to cockroaches.

Comptenence - since I never learned how to really cook or put recipes together, I find it amazingly hard to plan out meals and produce stuff that is appealing or even normal. I found it very difficult to collect recipes and work from them, especially when trying to manage fridge/pantry inventory, and oftentimes I wound up with something edible but really weird-tasting because I put together the wrong flavors. Or, my hunger would militate against knowing what I am doing and make it incredibly frustrating to remember all the steps in cooking.

Cooking meals from scratch requires planning and organization, which I found it hard to adapt into a kitchen context, and it was crazy-making if I was hungry for breakfast now and there was nothing but dirty dishes in the sink and I didn't know where to start.

I went to the hospital multiple times last year, because I was extraordinarily exhausted and I truly felt that my heart could fail any moment if I kept that all up. It was truly traumatic. If I could merely find a middle way to preparing simple meals once in a while, just to keep delivery costs down, I would do that, but for now, I'll follow the path of least fear and trembling.

Re: Amount of work that once bought an hour of light now buys 51 years of it (2017)

#335

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm very curious what your insurmountable obstacles and bad experiences with home meal preparation are. Most people can't imagine being unable to use the microwave or boil water.

For starters, I'm not incapable of nuking a frozen meal, reheating leftovers, or hard boiling eggs, things like that. Those are backup strategies still employed. It's difficult to explain succinctly what the barriers are, and without getting in a big debate about my abilities and limits. But in a nutshell: Start with intractable problems with pest control. If I eat delivery, I get no bugs. If I prepare fresh meals, t…

I know you didn't ask for advice, but here's some anyways. Start simple. Ramen costs about 50 cents at the market and requires only the ability to boil water and wait 5 minutes. If pests are a concern, wash and dry. dishes afterwards.

Then you can start with pasta which takes slightly longer to boil and you can get a pre-made jar of pasta sauce to put on it. You can even put cold pasta sauce on a hot pasta and it will warm up.

Neither of these dishes will harm you if you mess up cooking them, and both take less than 30 minutes. Practice makes perfect, so you can iterate and try new things.

I've had pretty intense past problems in the past, I found the best ways to address them are keeping all food and sealed containers, preferably glass jars with a ceiling lid. Doing dishes and avoiding standing water also helps. The idea is the star of the bugs. If there is no food they won't come looking.

As a side note not intended to be aggressive or attacking, if the idea of boiling pasta or Ramen induces fear or anxiety, you should seek medical help. Not everyone is typical, but everyone has the opportunity to learn and grow.

Re: Amount of work that once bought an hour of light now buys 51 years of it (2017)

#336

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For starters, I'm not incapable of nuking a frozen meal, reheating leftovers, or hard boiling eggs, things like that. Those are backup strategies still employed. It's difficult to explain succinctly what the barriers are, and without getting in a big debate about my abilities and limits. But in a nutshell: Start with intractable problems with pest control. If I eat delivery, I get no bugs. If I prepare fresh meals, t…

I know you didn't ask for advice, but here's some anyways. Start simple. Ramen costs about 50 cents at the market and requires only the ability to boil water and wait 5 minutes. If pests are a concern, wash and dry. dishes afterwards. Then you can start with pasta which takes slightly longer to boil and you can get a pre-made jar of pasta sauce to put on it. You can even put cold pasta sauce on a hot pasta and it wil…

You're right: I didn't ask for advice, and I consider yours to be a chauvinistic and arrogant gesture based on totally not reading or understanding my previous post. Please leave me alone.

Re: Amount of work that once bought an hour of light now buys 51 years of it (2017)

#337

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I know you didn't ask for advice, but here's some anyways. Start simple. Ramen costs about 50 cents at the market and requires only the ability to boil water and wait 5 minutes. If pests are a concern, wash and dry. dishes afterwards. Then you can start with pasta which takes slightly longer to boil and you can get a pre-made jar of pasta sauce to put on it. You can even put cold pasta sauce on a hot pasta and it wil…

You're right: I didn't ask for advice, and I consider yours to be a chauvinistic and arrogant gesture based on totally not reading or understanding my previous post. Please leave me alone.

Sorry you feel that way. You said you were desperate so I thought I'd offer some simple advice. Despite your aggression, I hope you overcome your fears and figure out how to cook for yourself and not rely on exorbitant prices from restaurants

Re: Amount of work that once bought an hour of light now buys 51 years of it (2017)

#338
post #324
post #240

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This almost sounds like the popular xkcd around CPU overheating being a feature: https://xkcd.com/1172/ Surely there are other, more reliable ways, to keep a space heated during winter months?

> Surely there are other, more reliable ways, to keep a space heated during winter months? Sure, there are plenty of other ways to keep a space heated. They're all radically more expensive, and radically more failure prone, than a 60W or 100W bulb burning constantly, back when the bulb was $2 and the trouble lamp cord was $10.

And before anyone chimes in that "burning constantly" is a waste of electricity, most bulbs used for this purpose are behind a mechanism that opens and closes the circuit according to the ambient temperature so the bulb doesn't burn if it's warm enough.

Re: Amount of work that once bought an hour of light now buys 51 years of it (2017)

#339
post #317

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I see, you're saying the loan is never paid back. Or is paid back only through more debt rolled over from something else. Ugh. I guess that's exactly how governments fund themselves. I don't see how a responsible person can even compete in that environment. It's like joining a sport where everyone's doping.

In this case, I don't think the revolving debt goes to governments because it's typically serviced by private entities. Rather, it's how people maintain an inflated lifestyle predicated on inflated home values.

Sure, I was only making an analogy -- people refinancing over and over, vaguely like governments pay T-bill interest by issuing more T-bills, where there's no expectation that the principal can ever really get paid back.

I was about to mention Fannie and Freddie as a footnote about how the government might be involved in all this, but didn't think it was a big deal. Yet Google tells me they end up buying 70% of mortgages. So there's some flow here that I'd do well to understand.

Re: Amount of work that once bought an hour of light now buys 51 years of it (2017)

#340
post #60

Wow, I had to check the math and with my assumptions it does in fact take >2 hours of minimum wage labor to power a CFL for 1 year ($7.25/hr, 0.14$ KWh). It's much higher than I expected. I had the notion that turning off CFLs was hardly worth my time but that's not entirely true.

Roughly $1 to use one watt for a year. 14 watt bulb takes $14 to light for a year. Varies with electric rates of course, but this is still a useful estimate.

That's a good rule of thumb, thank you!
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