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More students are turning away from college and toward apprenticeships

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Re: More students are turning away from college and toward apprenticeships

#331

Post by klyrs »

pclmulqdq wrote: post #26

College seems to have ~3 uses from students' perspectives: 1. A trade school for technical professionals who actually need specialist education (scientists, engineers, lawyers, doctors, etc.) 2. A finishing school for the elite 3. A blood sports arena for the brilliant to complete for professorships (almost all of whom will lose and be saddled with 6 figures of debt and 7 figures of opportunity cost) A lot of people…

> 3. A blood sports arena for the brilliant to complete for professorships (almost all of whom will lose and be saddled with 6 figures of debt and 7 figures of opportunity cost)

As somebody with a PhD, I say ho hum. I only took on 5 figures of debt, after quitting tech after the "dot com bubble." I had been bored out of my skull with the monotony and lack of intellectual challenge. But 7 figures of opportunity cost? Maybe even more, if I had joined the right startup. But I moved from low tech to high tech, using my degree in industry. Money is nice, sure, and can solve some problems in life. But real value is satisfaction. It doesn't have a price tag. There isn't a number of digits that would make me reconsider my choice.

If your primary measure of success is wealth, then university has never been the answer.

Re: More students are turning away from college and toward apprenticeships

#332

Post by OJFord »

Balgair wrote: post #238
xyzelement wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you are referring to something on one hand very valuable, on the other hand it's very easy to graduate college without learning that, and I think colleges themselves in recent decades are pivoting away from. A hundred+ years ago when "almost nobody" went to college, college was a place for those hungry and willing to sacrifice for intellectual growth. Nowadays college is a baseline consumer good that "almost…

As an uncle told me many moons ago: Do more in college. Write a rock opera, spend a week curled up in the union learning about black holes, be good enough to tutor. Don't just graduate with nothing but a taste for bad jazz and cheap beer.

Or, as cousin Melchior put it, 'anything other than a first or a fourth is wasted'.

(Brideshead Revisited - Evelyn Waugh. Not sure how internationally read it is, but a worthwhile classic. British degrees are classified from firsts to thirds (via upper and lower second class honours) - but the story is (initially) set at Oxford, which at the time awarded fourths.)

Re: More students are turning away from college and toward apprenticeships

#333

Post by Varqu »

azinman2 wrote: post #40
pclmulqdq wrote: post #26

College seems to have ~3 uses from students' perspectives: 1. A trade school for technical professionals who actually need specialist education (scientists, engineers, lawyers, doctors, etc.) 2. A finishing school for the elite 3. A blood sports arena for the brilliant to complete for professorships (almost all of whom will lose and be saddled with 6 figures of debt and 7 figures of opportunity cost) A lot of people…

It also grows the intellectual souls, exposing people to far more depth of thought. It also builds professional networks. If a person is smart enough to receive it, more education is almost always good. Of course money is a factor, and schools have gotten insanely expensive. I’m glad to hear that more people are finding alternative routes - it shouldn’t be that everyone needs college because quite frankly many career…

I would argue that it nowadays teaches more herd-behavior and political correctness than depth of thought (example: last Stanford Law dean case)

Re: More students are turning away from college and toward apprenticeships

#334

Post by nonethewiser »

lotsofpulp wrote: post #325
rthomas6 wrote: post #264

Rant: I feel like most people haven't really thought about why colleges are so expensive now. It is because of the federally guaranteed student loans. It means there's pretty much no downside to banks loaning an arbitrarily large amount, because if the student doesn't pay it back, the government will. And since most 18 year old students have pretty much zero price sensitivity, and they now have unlimited funds, colle…

>It means there's pretty much no downside to banks loaning an arbitrarily large amount, because if the student doesn't pay it back, the government will. Obama administration ended this in 2010: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federal_Family_Education_Loan_... The problem that remained, of course, is the federal government itself lends students a blank check as long as the check is deposited at an “accredited” universit…

Am I crazy or did Biden just try to pay for a bunch of student loans? Legality still pending AFAIK. Just because Obama may have ended one policy doesn’t mean they aren’t backstopped by the government.

Either way the point remains that the debt cannot be dispelled through bankruptcy which makes them less risky for banks.

Re: More students are turning away from college and toward apprenticeships

#335

Post by nonethewiser »

kello wrote: post #153

Over here in Germany they have well-established apprenticeship programs for many more jobs than in the US. There are apprenticeships for software developers, for bankers, for "Bürokauffrau/Bürokaufmanm" (office clerks/administrators), for media work, for all sorts of medical jobs, and so on. You name it, and there is probably an "Ausbildung" (apprenticeship) for it here. The apprenticeship programs are still somewhat…

Software developers also don’t make that much in Germany. You also need to get past the apprenticeship gatekeepers. No thanks.

Re: More students are turning away from college and toward apprenticeships

#336

Post by lapcat »

rthomas6 wrote: post #264

Rant: I feel like most people haven't really thought about why colleges are so expensive now. It is because of the federally guaranteed student loans. It means there's pretty much no downside to banks loaning an arbitrarily large amount, because if the student doesn't pay it back, the government will. And since most 18 year old students have pretty much zero price sensitivity, and they now have unlimited funds, colle…

> Rant: I feel like most people haven't really thought about why colleges are so expensive now. It is because of the federally guaranteed student loans.

I've heard this thousands and thousands of times. I suspect that most people have heard it already too.

> It means there's pretty much no downside to banks loaning an arbitrarily large amount, because if the student doesn't pay it back, the government will.

This is a misunderstanding of the current student loan system, which is mostly direct loans from the federal government rather than private bank loans. That's why student loan forgiveness by the federal government is a current issue.

Re: More students are turning away from college and toward apprenticeships

#337

Post by dontknowwhyihn »

happytesd8889 wrote: post #249
A4ET8a8uTh0 wrote: post #209

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree. I had my best critical thinking class in community college. If I was innately smart, I probably would not have needed it as badly, but that one class gave me a lot of foundation and some credence to 'education' being useful. In other words, I am not smart, but I am educated. Overall, I think society benefits from that. But that was 2 year community college after which I transferred ( and later got an MBA ).

People always use this term "critical thinking" on the internet and I am not sure anybody that uses it has a good definition of what it means or why it is something that can or must be taught in a college kind of environment. At least personally, it's concerning to find out how many people think they are thinking critically all the time, but are not able to think critically about the definition of critical thinking.…

I would define critical thinking as a way of filtering information before absorbing it as truth. This involves actively questioning it- is it internally consistent, does it seem to have an agenda, are some obvious questions not being considered, are the arguments appealing more to emotion than logic, etc.

Re: More students are turning away from college and toward apprenticeships

#338

Post by lapcat »

nonethewiser wrote: post #334
lotsofpulp wrote: post #325

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>It means there's pretty much no downside to banks loaning an arbitrarily large amount, because if the student doesn't pay it back, the government will. Obama administration ended this in 2010: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federal_Family_Education_Loan_... The problem that remained, of course, is the federal government itself lends students a blank check as long as the check is deposited at an “accredited” universit…

Am I crazy or did Biden just try to pay for a bunch of student loans? Legality still pending AFAIK. Just because Obama may have ended one policy doesn’t mean they aren’t backstopped by the government. Either way the point remains that the debt cannot be dispelled through bankruptcy which makes them less risky for banks.

> Am I crazy or did Biden just try to pay for a bunch of student loans?

Forgive, not pay for.

> Legality still pending AFAIK.

Oral arguments were heard by the Supreme Court a few weeks ago.

> the debt cannot be dispelled through bankruptcy

It can, actually, though it's difficult.

Re: More students are turning away from college and toward apprenticeships

#339

Post by lotsofpulp »

nonethewiser wrote: post #334
lotsofpulp wrote: post #325

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>It means there's pretty much no downside to banks loaning an arbitrarily large amount, because if the student doesn't pay it back, the government will. Obama administration ended this in 2010: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federal_Family_Education_Loan_... The problem that remained, of course, is the federal government itself lends students a blank check as long as the check is deposited at an “accredited” universit…

Am I crazy or did Biden just try to pay for a bunch of student loans? Legality still pending AFAIK. Just because Obama may have ended one policy doesn’t mean they aren’t backstopped by the government. Either way the point remains that the debt cannot be dispelled through bankruptcy which makes them less risky for banks.

>Just because Obama may have ended one policy doesn’t mean they aren’t backstopped by the government.

Yes, it does. Since 2010, a lender will not be paid by the government if the borrower defaults.

>the debt cannot be dispelled through bankruptcy

Yes, they can.

https://www.investopedia.com/how-to-file-student-loan-bankru...

Re: More students are turning away from college and toward apprenticeships

#340

Post by rvba »

pclmulqdq wrote: post #26

College seems to have ~3 uses from students' perspectives: 1. A trade school for technical professionals who actually need specialist education (scientists, engineers, lawyers, doctors, etc.) 2. A finishing school for the elite 3. A blood sports arena for the brilliant to complete for professorships (almost all of whom will lose and be saddled with 6 figures of debt and 7 figures of opportunity cost) A lot of people…

4) Finding spouse of similar background
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