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Day ahead electricity prices for EU

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Re: Day ahead electricity prices for EU

#331

Post by atlasunshrugged »

stepbeek wrote: post #318
jotm wrote: post #315

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As long as people won't even try to install a solar concentrator while bitching about rising prices, I won't take any of them seriously. Such a simple design, can be used for at least heating water for 3-6 months. But nah. Same for which the roofs. You don't have a white/silver roof on your house? Fuck you. On that note, you like cruise ships? Also fuck you.

> Same for which the roofs. You don't have a white/silver roof on your house? Fuck you. Why?

I think they reflect the sun and keep the house cool without a lot of extra energy for air conditioning.

Re: Day ahead electricity prices for EU

#332

Post by tsimionescu »

dazc wrote: post #91
sph wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can anybody explain why that is? Why a country that generates 99+% of its own electricity like UK is seeing price increases? Everybody blames the war, but AFAIK UK imports 1% of its gas from Russia, and its electricity is generated locally, so why are prices increasing? I would expect grain and wheat to increase 500%, not power.

We generate a lot of this electricity by burning gas which we have to buy from the market where prices are set relative to global supply and demand. This is why we originally stopped mining coal - because Russian gas was so cheap at the time that it was a no-brainer. What could possibly go wrong?

Coal has so many disadvantages beyond simple price that it's not even funny. It is by far the most deadly energy generation method.

Re: Day ahead electricity prices for EU

#333

Post by Sakos »

badpun wrote: post #237
jillesvangurp wrote: post #188

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We're not screwed. We're just witnessing the accelerated death of the fossil fuel based power generation industry and it's making renewable power extremely lucrative. Prices are high because of gas prices. Except it's August and Europe is producing a lot of solar power and a fair bit of wind power. That's why there are no blackouts. There is no power shortage; just a gas shortage. Europe has plenty of reserves to gen…

> We're not screwed. Are you sure? Is Europe technically capable of importing enough gas to offset what is no longer coming from Russia? Our abilities to import natural gal from outside UE (LNG terminals and pipelines) have limited throughput - not to mention, someone needs to be willing and able to fill them with gas first.

We're currently importing far more gas than we did before the war. https://www.eia.gov/todayinenergy/detail.php?id=52758

Re: Day ahead electricity prices for EU

#334

Post by atlasunshrugged »

candiodari wrote: post #302
Reason077 wrote: post #202

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Tell that to the proposed EuroAsia link (Greece-Cyprus-Israel) [1], or the proposed Australia-Singapore link [2]. Interconnector are getting longer and longer with each new generation. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EuroAsia_Interconnector [2] https://www.powerengineeringint.com/smart-grid-td/td-infrast... The electrical loss through HVDC cable is approximately 3% per 1000 km of cable, far less than with AC grids.…

Exactly, just like always before: only interconnects through oceans work because otherwise one government is entrusting its fate to another. In the best case that ends with countries paying tax to other countries' governments, in the worst case that ends in war.

Or it ends with a third government cutting the cable and massively disrupting the other two

Re: Day ahead electricity prices for EU

#335

Post by neural_thing »

balderdash wrote: post #135
sph wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can anybody explain why that is? Why a country that generates 99+% of its own electricity like UK is seeing price increases? Everybody blames the war, but AFAIK UK imports 1% of its gas from Russia, and its electricity is generated locally, so why are prices increasing? I would expect grain and wheat to increase 500%, not power.

What makes gas different from wheat? US is a huge exporter of wheat, that doesn’t mean us farmers/traders don’t have their eye on what Ukrainian shortfalls imply for global balances? Same thing for gas, uk is competing with their neighbors for a resource that just got a whole lot more scarce (locally), causing prices to rise

Gas is, well, a gas. The only way to transport it in the absence of pipelines is liquifying it. LNG infrastructure is very hard to build, and right now there's no additional LNG capacity to ship gas to Europe. It takes a while to build.

See https://doomberg.substack.com/p/have-fun-staying-cold

From last November

Re: Day ahead electricity prices for EU

#336

Post by v4dok »

MomoXenosaga wrote: post #238
spaceman_2020 wrote: post #209

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Germany’s obsession with solar and wind is absolutely baffling. It takes very little to know that Germany simply does not have the conditions for large scale solar. Yet it was pushed so heavily in lieu of nuclear power. Absurd.

In an ideal world countries like Spain and Greece invest in solar but they're completely incompetent. So you get the absurd situation that the Netherlands is European leader in solar energy lol. Most densely populated country in Europe has solar parks for fuck sake.

Your comment is flame. You really don't believe that competence is the only reason solar/wind didn't scale up right? If you remember, those countries were/are almost bunkrupt, since 2010 or so. Where would these massive investments come from? I mean the north didn't even want to move away from Russia, certainly they wouldn't care for funding solar in Greece, Spain or Italy.

The "Green new deal" however is a step in that direction. But IMO its theatrics. EU money to buy green German cars and green German infra with no plan on longevity or strategic change. Truth is, that if EU wanted energy independece, they could have it many years now. Be it nuclear or Mediterranean natural gas (the same gas now Israel is going to sell to EU).

Not that the respective governments are competent. They are not, thats a given. But the "competent" part of Europe is only so in a stupidly myopic level.

Re: Day ahead electricity prices for EU

#337

Post by gordaco »

bostik wrote: post #258
MomoXenosaga wrote: post #238

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In an ideal world countries like Spain and Greece invest in solar but they're completely incompetent. So you get the absurd situation that the Netherlands is European leader in solar energy lol. Most densely populated country in Europe has solar parks for fuck sake.

From what I've read, in Spain there was for a long time (may still be?) pretty effective/expensive legislation against installing solar panels anywhere. Reason? Regulatory capture, with energy companies lobbying hard against anything that might weaken their position or profiteering opportunities. I wouldn't call that necessarily incompetence. Corruption and cronyism, yes.

Yes, for a few years we had what was popularly called "Sun tax" in order to disincentivise people from installing solar panels in their homes. It was removed in 2018, though.

Although corruption was probably present, I would say that this kind of politics is precisely what we would expect from pro-business parties (in this case, the People's Party). They do have a long history of eschewing environmental policies as soon as any big company has money to lose because of them.

Re: Day ahead electricity prices for EU

#338

Post by tmikaeld »

anticristi wrote: post #246
tmikaeld wrote: post #151

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The disturbing thing is that Zone 4 has to pay export prices, when it would be fairer to pay pre-export prices. It's already starting to bankrupt businesses in Zone 4, that are calling for immediate changes [0]. [0] https://www.di.se/live/efter-elprissmockan-skanska-foretag-v...

Hello from zone 4. Indeed, people here are pretty pissed about this. Basically, if an exporting transmission line got damaged, zone 4 prices would drop instantly.

I'm also in Zone 4, prepare to be even more pissed then, the state want to double the export capacity [0].

[0] https://www.sydsvenskan.se/2022-08-18/regeringen-kan-bana-va...

The electricity companies and the socialist state earn billions [1] (2021), they have no incentives to change how it currently works.

[1] https://www.tn.se/hallbarhet/kritiken-staten-tjanar-miljarde...

Re: Day ahead electricity prices for EU

#339

Post by Sakos »

jillesvangurp wrote: post #203
Toutouxc wrote: post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The thing about "short term screwed" is that in some countries the "screwed" is actually "people having to pay more than 100 % of their income for electricity". Theoretically, long term, this could all work out nicely and steer more people and governments towards renewables and decentralized generation, but the short term consequences are starting to look brutal.

I expect some major support programs will be put in place to address this. And it will probably involve a bit of money printing. No sane government is going to let its citizens deal with going bankrupt because of massively higher energy prices. So Germany, France, etc. will do whatever needs doing to prevent that. The real problem will be industry having to shut down or minimize operations. They'll be the ones bearin…

I've seen a report or two talking about how fertilizer plants are being shutdown or run at reduced capacity across Europe because of gas costs. Electricity is the least of our problems.

Re: Day ahead electricity prices for EU

#340

Post by PeterisP »

seydor wrote: post #282
kitkat_new wrote: post #280

Earlier quoted context omitted.

this doesn't change anything. If supply was higher, e.g. using solar/wind/nuclear/coal, prices would be lower

that would work only if non-gas sources generated enough so that gas is not needed at all. As it is right now, solar producers are getting a bonanza in profits because they are being paid at exorbitant prices. At this level, they have no incentive to ramp up production to remove gas from the equation.

There's no single "they" for "solar producers". No matter what the existing producers do, even if they would all illegally collude, the current prices make it attractive for individual households to install solar panels and thus add new solar capacity.
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