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Day ahead electricity prices for EU

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Re: Day ahead electricity prices for EU

#231

Post by kilovoltaire »

thepasswordis wrote: post #195
sprak wrote: post #23

Sweden has four zones and according to [1] tomorrow's price will be from north to south: Zone 1: 14,25 cents/kWh Zone 2: 14,25 cents/kWh Zone 3: 108,64 cents/kWh Zone 4: 201,63 cents/kWh 1 Swedish krona is 0,094 USD. So between 1,3 and 20 American cents per kWh. Most people live in Zone 3 followed by Zone 4. Facebook's datacenter is in Zone 1. [1]: https://elen.nu

To put this into more human terms: a tesla model Y has a 75kwh battery. So this means to charge it, at home, would cost between $0.75, $2.25, and $15. A normal air conditioner uses about 3.5kw. So if it runs for 6 hours a day, so 21kwh/day. $0.21/day, $0.63/day, and $4.2/day.

thanks for the context!

small typo - air conditioner should be 3.5kw not kwh

Re: Day ahead electricity prices for EU

#232

Post by sph »

jillesvangurp wrote: post #203
Toutouxc wrote: post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The thing about "short term screwed" is that in some countries the "screwed" is actually "people having to pay more than 100 % of their income for electricity". Theoretically, long term, this could all work out nicely and steer more people and governments towards renewables and decentralized generation, but the short term consequences are starting to look brutal.

I expect some major support programs will be put in place to address this. And it will probably involve a bit of money printing. No sane government is going to let its citizens deal with going bankrupt because of massively higher energy prices. So Germany, France, etc. will do whatever needs doing to prevent that. The real problem will be industry having to shut down or minimize operations. They'll be the ones bearin…

> I expect some major support programs will be put in place to address this. And it will probably involve a bit of money printing.

One of the two Tory lunatics^Hhopeful candidates for PM confirmed there's not much they can do to ease the energy price crisis without creating a massive hole in the British budget. But that's what countries will have to do, and it's not going to be pretty.

The Western world just went on a massive printing spree two years ago because of COVID, a further temporary injection of capital and 2008 will pale in comparison to the next recession.

Re: Day ahead electricity prices for EU

#233

Post by Symbiote »

legulere wrote: post #189
tuukkah wrote: post #172

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To a house that is not heated by direct electricity (nor by gas), or to one where you have installed some other source of heating such as heat pumps or district heating.

What do you think the heat pump and district heating runs on? Heat pumps still need electricity and district heating is often using gas.

Mine in Copenhagen runs mostly from 'waste' heat from electricity production and waste incineration.

The price (last time I checked) is the same as last year.

Re: Day ahead electricity prices for EU

#234

Post by makomk »

locallost wrote: post #114
dkjaudyeqooe wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> determined by the most expensive producer That's wrong. The price is determined by demand and supply, which in turn is determined by what prices producers are willing to sell at and consumers are willing to buy at, plus other traders in the market.

It's correct for the day ahead price [1]. Of course the most expensive producer needs to be actually needed to satisfy the demand side. [1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Merit_order

Which is to say that it's determined by both the supply and demand side: if the price were lower there would be people willing to buy at that price but not enough to sell them, and if it were higher there would presumably be people willing to sell at that price but not enough buyers. It is, in some fairly fundamental sense, the actual market price of electricity at that point in time.

Re: Day ahead electricity prices for EU

#235

Post by foepys »

mantas wrote: post #74
MomoXenosaga wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No matter what magic plan anyone comes up with it would take years to implement. Nuclear, more insulation, hydrogen, new gas fields. It's almost winter already.

More insulation is double edge sword. I moved into a super-energy-efficient house here in north/east Europe. Heating in winter is damn cheap. But retention works in summer too… so I had to get air conditioner :( And electrical ventilation is a must all year round to get air fresh, keep module at bay ant not loose energy living with open windows. Energy saving in bottom line will be abysmal :(

You should leave the windows open at night to let the cooler air in and cool the insulation from the inside. Once you let the heat inside by opening windows in the heat, you have lost, that's true.

Re: Day ahead electricity prices for EU

#236

Post by nickpp »

bushbaba wrote: post #170
nickpp wrote: post #144

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Rationing and price controls is how you end up with shortages. A functioning market will provide the motivation to search, find and finance solutions instead.

The functioning market will decimate industry and impact the poor. It’s a long term disaster. This is something where China has done a good job. The EU should plan who gets the energy available and how much to charge. Otherwise the EU will be dealt a blow to industry so large it might not ever recover.

Planned economies have been historically unable to even feed their citizens. Let's hope EU won't make that mistake.

Re: Day ahead electricity prices for EU

#237

Post by badpun »

jillesvangurp wrote: post #188
locallost wrote: post #95

This is nothing. If you want to panic, check the futures markets for the next 2 quarters, especially France. So I think short term we are pretty screwed. But I think if you can produce electricity at 1/10 or even 1/20 of the price, wouldn't you be adding new capacity now? The only fast option are renewables, so my wild guess is that there will be so much new capacity added in the next years, the bottleneck will not b…

We're not screwed. We're just witnessing the accelerated death of the fossil fuel based power generation industry and it's making renewable power extremely lucrative. Prices are high because of gas prices. Except it's August and Europe is producing a lot of solar power and a fair bit of wind power. That's why there are no blackouts. There is no power shortage; just a gas shortage. Europe has plenty of reserves to gen…

> We're not screwed.

Are you sure? Is Europe technically capable of importing enough gas to offset what is no longer coming from Russia? Our abilities to import natural gal from outside UE (LNG terminals and pipelines) have limited throughput - not to mention, someone needs to be willing and able to fill them with gas first.

Re: Day ahead electricity prices for EU

#238

Post by MomoXenosaga »

spaceman_2020 wrote: post #209
pojzon wrote: post #175

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ive tried to explain this issue to EVs fanatics, but nobody listens. Anytime you mention energy transmision issues - you get total backlash. We wasted EU money on pointless stuff while we could have upgraded our transit cables etc.

Germany’s obsession with solar and wind is absolutely baffling. It takes very little to know that Germany simply does not have the conditions for large scale solar. Yet it was pushed so heavily in lieu of nuclear power. Absurd.

In an ideal world countries like Spain and Greece invest in solar but they're completely incompetent. So you get the absurd situation that the Netherlands is European leader in solar energy lol. Most densely populated country in Europe has solar parks for fuck sake.

Re: Day ahead electricity prices for EU

#239

Post by moogly »

halper wrote: post #40
simplecto wrote: post #8

by that measure Swedish datacenters should be oversubscribed

That data centres in Sweden pay almost no electricity tax (5 SEK/MWh if I remember correctly) while consumers pay 36 is not popular with everyone. The map doesn't show that Sweden is divided into four areas. SE1 and SE2, the northernmost two and where some data centres are, have prices that most days are in the single-SEK/MWh range while in SE3 the prices might be tens of times higher. SE4, the southernmost area, has…

And don't forget that's 36 SEK/MWh minus VAT, so in reality it's 45, and businesses don't pay the VAT of course.

Re: Day ahead electricity prices for EU

#240

Post by formerly_proven »

chrisseaton wrote: post #218
vorpalhex wrote: post #190

Earlier quoted context omitted.

California has to shut down their grid occasionally just because it's in such poor repair that wildfires are a risk. I can't imagine how they are going to handle everyone getting EVs.

In most places electricity cables are buried. In California they have them blowing around in the trees so they start fires.

Street-level and medium-voltage distribution, sure, but nobody wants to bury 100+ kV lines unless they really have to, because it's hugely expensive and also has much higher losses.
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