Windows 11 will create heaps of needless trash • Hacker News Board

Re: Windows 11 will create heaps of needless trash

#331

Post by roelschroeven » Mon, Jun 28, 2021, 5:26 PM UTC

roelschroeven wrote: post #74

pt_PT_guy wrote: post #44

People have voted... with their money. Microsoft can't longer afford being yield back by deprecated processor technology. And the bad publicity of doing so. By not bumping the requirements a lot of security and speed improvements can't be done. This is even more visible with the Apple M1 release. Because of it Windows looks like insecure, insufficient and unoptimized. People have chosen that they don't care about ope…

What deprecated processor technology? The cutoff is not based on CPU capabilities or processing power. They just choose a point in time and only support CPU's newer than that.

s/CPU's/CPUs/

Re: Windows 11 will create heaps of needless trash

#332

Post by strombofulous » Mon, Jun 28, 2021, 5:37 PM UTC

majewsky wrote: post #317

strombofulous wrote: post #300

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Only 1.97% of steam users use windows 7, so I don't think we can assume either demographic is a fair representation of all users https://store.steampowered.com/hwsurvey/Steam-Hardware-Softw...

Steam users are not a "fair representation of all users" either. The gamer demographic is biased towards newer and faster hardware than the average user, and the newest greatest hardware is only going to be supported on the latest OS version(s).

I agree. I claim that both sets are biased, whch is why we can't use the steam charts or Firefox usage data to draw any conclusions about the broader population

Re: Windows 11 will create heaps of needless trash

#333

Post by bifrost » Mon, Jun 28, 2021, 6:23 PM UTC

krylon wrote: post #82

btdmaster wrote: post #5

I wonder how many will be convinced to install Linux, especially given the increasing move for Operating Systems as a browser shim.

I remember reading some blog posts from people switching to Linux because they disliked Windows 10 for various reasons (mostly privacy concerns and forced updates), but I think those were fairly tech savvy already. Most people will just use whatever Microsoft releases, either because it comes preinstalled on their PC, because it's what they know, or because they need Windows because of some application or piece of ha…

YOTLD is defo one of those silly "jokes" thats had staying power. I'd argue that Chromebooks and Android are probably about as close as we're gonna get.

I've been using FreeBSD as a primary desktop since about 1997 or so, and while I did spend a lot of time using it as a remote display for my Solaris and SGI machines, its held up well. I've also used the same window manager forever so I guess I like the anachronism :)

Re: Windows 11 will create heaps of needless trash

#334

Post by beardyw » Mon, Jun 28, 2021, 6:32 PM UTC

recursive wrote: post #204

bruce343434 wrote: post #186

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Perhaps, because win7 is known for being "the last good windows" with some privacy. It may or may not be true, but a lot of people are adamant about not using linux while also trying to maintain privacy, hence they use win7. I imagine such users would probably use a browser like firefox.

I remember when win2k was "the last good windows" and then windows xp after it. I $CURRENT-2 is always going to be considered "the last good windows".

No, Microsoft reserves odd numbers for good versions. That's why there was no 9. 11 will be brilliant! ;)

Re: Windows 11 will create heaps of needless trash

#335

Post by g051051 » Mon, Jun 28, 2021, 6:34 PM UTC

supernovae wrote: post #330

g051051 wrote: post #276

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes it is. It's enabled in the firmware (fTPM) and shows TPM 2.0 available in the tpm.msc snap-in.

Dunno then, ask your motherboard vendor why it's not supported.

I don't know what they'd have to do with it. It's the CPU, not the motherboard, that's being blacklisted by Microsoft. I could upgrade to a Threadripper 2950X without changing anything else, and it'd be supported. I just don't think a "free" upgrade to Windows 11 should force me to spend $800 when there's no technical justification for it. I have a 3-year old enthusiast/gamer system, it seems crazy that a high-end CPU introduced less than 4 years ago would be unsupported.

Re: Windows 11 will create heaps of needless trash

#336

Post by alkonaut » Mon, Jun 28, 2021, 6:56 PM UTC

vetinari wrote: post #194

floatboth wrote: post #157

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This looks like a list of processors they *approve for OEMs* that build *new* computers with Windows pre-installed. Everyone is acting completely ridiculously thinking that there will be actual cpuid checks.

> The specification defines the Windows minimum hardware requirements necessary to: > Boot and run Windows > Update and service Windows > Provide a baseline user experience that is comparable with similar devices and computers It says nowhere that it is for OEMs, this is not the Windows Logo program which is for OEMs; and in fact, some of the CPUs mentioned are not on the market anymore.

It’s something they can guarantee to some extent at least. Perhaps they want to have an out in order to deprecate support in the future. But just like Win10 doesn’t run CPUID and show a “sorry” dialog on your Sandy Bridge 2600K, I doubt it will for a Skylake in Windows 11.

Re: Windows 11 will create heaps of needless trash

#337

Post by chemmail » Mon, Jun 28, 2021, 9:31 PM UTC

sedatk wrote: post #9

I think the article makes a good point about the arbitrary red line drawn between two CPU generations with no justification whatsoever, but "heaps of trash" isn't the strongest argument against this. Arguably, Intel releasing new CPUs causes that even more heaps of trash, probably orders of magnitude more than Windows. It's a silly argument IMHO.

The CPU minimums seem to be some collusion with hardware makers. The 8th gen is really 6th gen Skylake with some tweaks as is the 9th and even 10th gen. I think the line being drawn at DDR4 as the minimum requirement would actually make sense.

Re: Windows 11 will create heaps of needless trash

#338

Post by cdolan » Mon, Jun 28, 2021, 9:34 PM UTC

einr wrote: post #199

cdolan wrote: post #41

Could you not argue the exact opposite point with the same underlying facts? Meaning “requiring modern low power CPU’s is a great thing for the environment”? And how reasonable is it to say these PCs will be immediately trashed? Seems like a straw man argument - I know plenty of schools that will happily run Win10 until 2030

Meaning “requiring modern low power CPU’s is a great thing for the environment”? https://www.networkworld.com/article/2229029/computer-factor... "Study finds 70% of the energy a typical laptop will consume during its life span is used in manufacturing the computer" Also, at least on the performance/gaming side, Intel's latest chips are huge, hot-running power hogs. Since they are so far behind in process technology,…

I believe you and tend to think that myself (my newest PC with ~2 year old parts has a noticeable impact on my home energy usage).

I suppose my critique was more to prove a point that the news can be slanted either way and I find that frustrating.

Re: Windows 11 will create heaps of needless trash

#339

Post by vvillena » Tue, Jun 29, 2021, 1:14 PM UTC

omegalulw wrote: post #205

vvillena wrote: post #165

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because the games don't take advantage of the higher bandwidth. In fact, they probably don't even take advantage of the SSD, because games are still built so that they work when installed on spinning drives. The advantage of SSDs is the random access time, but if you are streaming continuous data, it's only about triple the speed of an HDD. A NVME PCIe 4.0 SSD can be up to 15 times faster than a SATA SSD. The differe…

Your argument doesn't make sense, a triple speedup is still a LOT and should easily be noticeable.

It is noticeable, but that's not the point. A SSD-only engine can avoid some asset duplication and achieve an effective 4x speedup over a HDD equivalent, but that is still slow in the grand scheme of things: you could have a bigger or a more detailed environment, but that's about it. A PCI 4 NVME coupled with the latest compression tech means you can renew all the data in RAM in less than 2 seconds. That's the big deal.

Re: Windows 11 will create heaps of needless trash

#340

Post by leucineleprec0n » Tue, Jun 29, 2021, 5:44 PM UTC

GekkePrutser wrote: post #172

leucineleprec0n wrote: post #156

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Haha I realize that re live tiles. I do think the tiles lost their allure over time, but at the least the functional UI within menus and such that MS has been evolving at it's best looks great or superior to others of the day then/now (metro, fluent). Likewise re cleaning up the start crap, I'm not wedded to the tiles haha! As a reluctant recent MacOS user though, I really love the functionality of the start menu's e…

I use Mac a lot too (I do use pretty much all platforms every day). But I don't use Launchpad for the same reason. I don't find it fits well on my big 24" screen. I don't want huge icons spread out over the whole thing, same issue I had with Windows 8. Instead, what I do is I add the Applications folder to the dock and set it to pop-up grid mode. That way it provides a nice start menu. Incidentially this was pretty m…

Holy hell, how did I not realize that re: app folder. I think maybe the qualm I had was that the placement is centered to the right, and I can't replace Finder app's position with it? I know I tried alias folders and hated it for some reason. Thank you for that, it's an improvement :). And yea launchpad is just my nightmare, I actually don't mind blowing things up with some padding, I use the scaled 1280X800 on my MacBook at the moment - and even then launchpad just disturbs me because of the effort required to navigate, and lack of real customization.

On the other hand, MS consistently seems to develop the most attractive (at least, in principle with the bordering and sidebar menu for navigation with highlighted selection - all very cognitively "native" if you will) ways of striking a balance between aesthetics and function. Frankly I think it looks better than MacOS due to the contrast, but the typography feels off IMO.

See here:

https://46c4ts1tskv22sdav81j9c69-wpengine.netdna-ssl.com/wp-...

Now in fairness re consistently: I do think the old settings app of W10 was bad, I often forget how horrible navigation is - one feels much more "trapped" if you will than in their W11 version. W11 version should scale well, too.

I am still curious how their ARM64 efforts will shake out. What're your thoughts there? MS have to hedge between architectures so the chicken and egg issue is certainly salient unlike with Apple for whom the success was all but guaranteed.