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Universal basic income to be tested in Wales

bbc.co.uk

331–337 of 337 posts

Re: Universal basic income to be tested in Wales

#331
post #210

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would be all for the 3rd paragraph. I'm a programmer living in a first world country (spent the first two and a half decades of my life in a third world shit hole) . I have a modicum of financial responsibility. This means before I reach my 40s I'll have more than enough to live indefinitely off my investments. While gaining money. I am not that smart. I am not incredibly hard working. And yet with less than 20 yea…

> they can sustain me like that but they can't sustain most of the population. you got lucky. The skills you had was a right fit for the times. What the gov't needs to do is to up-skill people so that they can provide for themselves. This will take a lot of effort, but i do believe that such investment is worth it. Rather than UBI, or any sort of welfare that encourages people to stop working.

In few decades there will just not be enough jobs in which humans are more convenient to employ than robots and AIs.

Up-skilling is just delaying the problem we will face when there is not enough offer to match the demand for jobs.

Re: Universal basic income to be tested in Wales

#332

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Probably the same thing we did when agriculture went from 70% of the workforce to under 1.5%. People will adapt to fill new demands. If it comes to pass at some future time that machines can do all the work and everyone can live a Garden of Eden existence, goods and services will be so cheap due to their natural abundance, that UBI might be feasible but food and essentials might be almost not worth the trouble of met…

But why are we forcing people to work for the essentials when the essentials (water, food, shelter) require a tiny fraction of the population and resources? Is this the kind of society that we want to live in? Where trough automation and first mover advantage we allow people to be ridiculously rich while the rest of the population struggles to get by?

I agree with this 100%. The most effective UBI is providing water, food, shelter and all the other essentials + some cash for extra, where the cash part can be small.

As the time goes on and our society gets richer, we would include more things into the essentials (holidays, a personal vehicle, etc.)

Re: Universal basic income to be tested in Wales

#333

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>There aren't any financial and governmental systems sustaining you, it's you offering what the market wants and can't get enough of I use public utilities like streets, the NHS, and a stocks and shares account that I won't pay taxes on gains when I start living off it. The main thing that will allow me to not work is having a certain amount of money that is making me money. If I were to have a kid they would be fina…

Your parents didn't pay taxes? Mine paid unthinkable amounts of money (without even considering interest compounding) and that's what the infrastructure was built with; the government certainly didn't create it out of thin air. New infrastructure is paid for with my taxes - and my parents are still active too. If your parents never paid then be thankful to those who did, not governments. Sure, your money makes you mo…

I think you're reading more than there is on my comments.

Why are you so obsessed with 'luck'? I haven't even said that word once in this thread.

>Your parents didn't pay taxes?

Never said they didn't. Only that I won't pay taxes over the gains of most of my investments.

Not sure how inheritance tax works, but my hypothetical child wouldn't need to work either.

So what is up with this system where that can happen with a modest amount of money but people have to work?

>The reality is that a lot of people will have to work a lot harder to make life work-less for a much smaller group of people content with merely surviving

You sure about that? Because merely surviving is quite cheap nowadays and the vast majority of people aren't happy with merely surviving.

Re: Universal basic income to be tested in Wales

#334
post #158

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This. If it were universal, companies could just start charging everyday products much more. Boom, all people getting ubi suddenly need to start working again and they need to pay more in taxes to support all the money going in ubi.

> This. If it were universal, companies could just start charging everyday products much more. Boom, all people getting ubi suddenly need to start working again and they need to pay more in taxes to support all the money going in ubi. This is pretty naive. By the same logic, an unemployment rate of 0 would also cause a lot of inflation and still lead to poverty. Everyone's now earning a wage, so prices will just rise…

> UBI creates no money. It just redistributes it a little. It doesn't devalue the currency, and isn't inflationary.

"Creating" money is not a well-defined thing and is not what causes inflation. In fact, inflation is complex and not well understood but what we know is that it is driven by people's incomes (a flow) not the size of monetary aggregates (which are a stock). In fact you can run the whole economy with only a single dollar or with trillions of dollars, and as long as incomes are unchanged there isn't going to be any inflation as you switch between these two regimes of many slow dollars or a single fast dollar. That said, there are some channels by which UBI can lead to inflation:

* If you take money from someone with a lower propensity to spend and give it to someone with a higher propensity to spend, then this creates inflationary pressures.

* If you give someone enough money so they drop out of the labor market or reduce their hours, then this can cause inflation

* The heavy taxes may discourage employment as well -- why work if half your income is taken away if you can do nothing and have the necessities of life provided.

Whether or not these factors actually cause inflation and how much is an unknown. It's certainly not obvious that it wont, and there is reason to believe that it will. Merely the statement that "no new dollars are created" has no bearing on whether it is inflationary or deflationary.

Unfortunately small experiments in a city or two is not going to answer this question. An entire nationwide experiment for a few decades will answer it, but by then we could have a society in which a large chunk of the population simply refuses to work and as a result is unfit for any kind of productive employment. That's the risk with a real UBI - what happens two or three generations on down the road if the culture shifts so that people expect the necessities of life to be given to them without producing anything in return. The risk is to the productive capacity of society as a whole, and to large swaths of it that need to learn important life lessons in order to become productive members of society.

Re: Universal basic income to be tested in Wales

#335
post #307

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not GP, but: single-family-exclusive zoning for one, which props up home values and is the norm in almost all US suburbs. Who benefits when home prices are high? Who benefits when they're affordable?

Biden is purposing giving tax breaks to cities that stop this practice.[0] How is does this support the other poster's argument? [0] https://www.usatoday.com/in-depth/news/nation/2021/04/14/zon...

This is a good thing and I support it. Zoning decisions though tend to be more at the local level than the federal level, and I don't think there was much of any federal policy on it until now.

Anecdata: my local area leans heavily Democratic, and exclusively single family zoning is the norm almost everywhere around here. (Though thankfully the city I actually live in is mostly an exception.)

Re: Universal basic income to be tested in Wales

#336

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your parents didn't pay taxes? Mine paid unthinkable amounts of money (without even considering interest compounding) and that's what the infrastructure was built with; the government certainly didn't create it out of thin air. New infrastructure is paid for with my taxes - and my parents are still active too. If your parents never paid then be thankful to those who did, not governments. Sure, your money makes you mo…

I think you're reading more than there is on my comments. Why are you so obsessed with 'luck'? I haven't even said that word once in this thread. >Your parents didn't pay taxes? Never said they didn't. Only that I won't pay taxes over the gains of most of my investments. Not sure how inheritance tax works, but my hypothetical child wouldn't need to work either. So what is up with this system where that can happen wit…

People don't have to work, they can do exactly the same thing you did, and then their children don't have to work just like yours. That seems perfectly fair to me - of course as I said, let's offer welfare to those who are unable to make these choices, but most people are able to.

Re: Universal basic income to be tested in Wales

#337
post #227
post #202

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you can't think of any, do you think that means that those who can't work (disability, illness, dependents) deserve to be poor forever?

i'm not saying the deserve to be poor, but they cannot be rich - and at best, society can keep them alive and provide the minimal, necessary sustenance for survival. While they wait for technological improvements to cure them of their illness (if such tech comes to pass). What would be a viable alternative? If this had happened in the jungle pre-historic times, they'd just be dead. So is it not an improvement?

> If this had happened in the jungle pre-historic times, they'd just be dead.

You're arguing for "The Protestant work ethic", which certainly isn't pre-historic. It's associated with the advancement of capitalism.

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