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Universal basic income to be tested in Wales

bbc.co.uk

201–210 of 337 posts

Re: Universal basic income to be tested in Wales

#201
post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yup, people who actually lift their way out of poverty are not a reliable votebank. You see this happen a lot in the U.S. where minority groups have been trapped for decades by the Democrat party especially. First with sharecropping and segregation then with class warfare, either way they're kept down on the farm.

> where minority groups have been trapped for decades by the Democrat party especially. What is the alternative, the party of "Jews will not replace us"?

There is no alternative, that's why tactical voting[1] exists.

[1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tactical_voting

Re: Universal basic income to be tested in Wales

#202
post #167
post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The drive from this comes out of the right, who believe that work is the only valid route out of poverty. Regardless of actual capacity to work.

> only valid route out of poverty well, what other routes are there?

If you can't think of any, do you think that means that those who can't work (disability, illness, dependents) deserve to be poor forever?

Re: Universal basic income to be tested in Wales

#203

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have significant sympathy for that base’s point of view. It’s one thing to say that we must provide a social safety net for the most vulnerable, whether temporarily or permanently so. It’s quite another to say “work should be optional and the basics of life should be provided for all [via the work of others]”. I think you’ll find a few people who object to my 2nd paragraph, but extending the argument to the 3rd is…

What do we do when automation reaches most jobs? Create artificial jobs to keep people busy? Now that I think about it, that seems to be what we have been doing for some 30-40 years now. By artificial jobs, I mean jobs that if they disappeared, life would go on pretty much the same. This was in fact quite visible during all the lock-downs. Many many people no longer worked and all the essential and many non-essential…

I imagine this is an uncomfortable thought for many people on HN. How many folks are essentially creating CRUD apps of dubious value all day long and lying to themselves that what they provide is of great value to society simply because it is compensated well?

IMO modern society can easily support the needs (and wants, for that matter) of ourselves with just a fraction of the workers we have. So we create busywork for the rest so they feel useful and can participate in the economy. Maybe welfare should be reorganized like today's big corporations and the gov't can become the employer of last resort. It's not like we haven't basically done that in the past.

Re: Universal basic income to be tested in Wales

#204
post #138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When people are paid starvation wages and have to have multiple jobs, that's brushed off as "supply and demand" of labor. You get paid what the market is willing to pay for your labor, and it's your own fault if you can't offer anything more compelling to demand a higher wage. But when the situation is flipped around, and there is a shortage of labor instead? Suddenly the same rules don't apply, "supply and demand" i…

I don't have the 'correct' answer here, but I think I understand what you're saying. Except the shortage of labor in this case is artificially created. I agree that companies should not be entitled to cheap labor, and I do wish they are paid better though

A fair point, but lots of market situations are "artificial", it's not like a natural disaster caused any of the recent recessions.

Re: Universal basic income to be tested in Wales

#205

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not up to you to decide what to do with other people's money. Feel free to donate all your money to the poor who deserve better; if you will use threat of violence to get someone else money (no matter the cause) I'll call you immoral.

The threat of violence enforced the system that let them get the money (with a democratic government's name printed on it, mind you) to begin with. Was violence immoral when it enforced a system that shaped wages and the returns of capital in such-and-such way?

violence only enforces contracts, which are formal promises. Violence doesn't enforce market rates for wages, demand and supply and other market forces.

Re: Universal basic income to be tested in Wales

#206
post #72
post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The laws are like that, because someone feels that it's not in their interest that people actually get out of poverty. The logic behind that interest is simple. You can't make people dependent on you if you simultaneously give them the tools to achieve independence. And these guys love dependent people, because it gives them power. However this attitude is ruining most Western societies.

do you have any hard data or research to back that up?

Well, if you're willing to look for it, there does exist research within political science that shows that "the elites" are systematically favoured in representational democracies, as far as policy implementation goes. In short, these analysis show that policies that has the favour of the elites gets voted in far more often than policies that only has the favour of the regular population.

Two great outliers here are of course the vote for Brexit, and the election of Trump. The elite hated both of those. An interesting paper would thus be to compare the contentedness of these "factions" with their political system between countries that have representative democracy, vs. countries that have a more direct style of democracy such as Switzerland.

Speaking purely from logic, neither the political nor the monetary elite would rationally want regular people to get a possible advantage over them. Moreover, they want people that are dependent on them, because that makes them far easier to control. You do that by making sure they only ever get enough money for their daily bread, without getting so much as to cut into what keeps the elites rich, which is a combination of real estate, banking and industry ownership.

This means both some right leaning, but also left leaning parties, might want to ensure that regular people are never given more than exactly enough for mere survival, but not a penny more. This also goes for education, btw. You don't want to over-educate these guys, lest they become a competitor to the job you're looking for. If you give them any less, you'll have riots on your hand. If you give them any more, you lose control over them.

Re: Universal basic income to be tested in Wales

#207

Interesting how political parties are for or against this pilot project before the results are known. What happened to gathering evidence first and then making up one's mind? There have been other projects in Canada, Finland,Kenya and the Netherlands, all with “positive” results. It is useful to ask what you are trying to achieve with an UBI? * lift people out of poverty? * save money on other social schemes, like pe…

> Interesting how political parties are for or against this pilot project before the results are known. What happened to gathering evidence first and then making up one's mind?

Would you run a pilot of every idea? At the level of a country?

Paying everyone in Wales £ 1 is a big endeavor, let alone a value that's meaningful and on a monthly basis, so it's not as if a pilot comes at no cost. You could certainly form an opinion from experiments in other places, or economic thought expirements or from wherever it is politicians pull most of their thoughts.

Re: Universal basic income to be tested in Wales

#208

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In the last year 33.8% of all personal income in the US came from the government. It’s crazy to think that number could go much higher but no wonder we are experiencing shortages of just about everything and inflation.

That is incredible, do you have a link by chance?

https://twitter.com/biancoresearch/status/138937682791591936...

Can’t find a link to an article but here is a writer for Bloomberg with reference to his graphs from Bloomberg.

Re: Universal basic income to be tested in Wales

#209

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just some back of the envelope work - with 70 million million divided amoung 300 million people, that's 233,333 per person. Assume 4 people per household that's about a million per household. Avg s&p dividend is 2.3% - That's minimum wage per 2 working adult household. The math does seem to stack up. The problem is distribution, not total wealth it seems Edit: Ok this is skewed as US stock markets are really a global…

Yes but that way of splitting would very quickly destroy for the very very obvious reason - no money must be given to children... And dividing by adults, say over-15s, it's 70T per 257M, $272K per adult or $1044 per month for that family of 4 with 2 adults in it... That hardly solves any questions. And you can't divide all of it, because it means destroying capitalism, taking the bottom out of society. Only a small f…

I am not an advocate for UBI, I am an advocate for a fairer society. (And the intra-US wealth disparities are as nothing to globally)

I should not have assumed dividends were of total stock - that's nonsense. But even so stock market is not total wealth - far more wealth is in real estate for example.

First there is no destroying of society, I am assuming a different distribution of the dividends - assume something like the Norway Sovereign fund(s).

And while this is very back of the envelope I am assuming money goes to children (broad assumption that every household is two adults and two kids).

But let's look at say GDP distribution - that's 5.5 trn - which divided by 300 m people is 18k each.

I am just arguing against the idea that there is not enough wealth or money around, so we cannot share it.

There is enough. How we share it is politics.

And it's always worth nothing that history shows if you don't share for long enough, people take it away from you.

Re: Universal basic income to be tested in Wales

#210

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have significant sympathy for that base’s point of view. It’s one thing to say that we must provide a social safety net for the most vulnerable, whether temporarily or permanently so. It’s quite another to say “work should be optional and the basics of life should be provided for all [via the work of others]”. I think you’ll find a few people who object to my 2nd paragraph, but extending the argument to the 3rd is…

I would be all for the 3rd paragraph. I'm a programmer living in a first world country (spent the first two and a half decades of my life in a third world shit hole) . I have a modicum of financial responsibility. This means before I reach my 40s I'll have more than enough to live indefinitely off my investments. While gaining money. I am not that smart. I am not incredibly hard working. And yet with less than 20 yea…

> they can sustain me like that but they can't sustain most of the population.

you got lucky. The skills you had was a right fit for the times.

What the gov't needs to do is to up-skill people so that they can provide for themselves. This will take a lot of effort, but i do believe that such investment is worth it. Rather than UBI, or any sort of welfare that encourages people to stop working.

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