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Why did I leave Google or, why did I stay so long?

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Re: Why did I leave Google or, why did I stay so long?

#331

Post by watwut »

toyg wrote: post #208
watwut wrote: post #179

> online ahead of us was overheard saying “What? Sushi again???” which became our inside joke around entitlement. Yeah, I dont like Sushi either. Not sure why not liking Sushi is entitlement, but as I said, normal food tastes better.

... implying that sushi is abnormal...?

In here it definitely is. It is more expensive for same amount of food and you have to go to sushi bar to get it. When you go to restaurant, then you don't get sushi. It is not something canteen would give you, ever.

Also, the "Sushi AGAIN" complain can be entitlement only is Sushi is something special where you live. If sushi is ordinary food, then it is no more entitled then "chicken wings again" - perfectly normal thing to overhear if your local cafeteria is giving chicken wings every other day.

Re: Why did I leave Google or, why did I stay so long?

#332

Post by mywacaday »

yardie wrote: post #260
andrew_ wrote: post #225

It's astounding in so far as how unique this conversation is to tech. I've worked as a pipefitter, electrician's apprentice, and general construction hand in the past - I could only imagine how it would go telling my former foreman that I'd like to head off to yoga in the morning for an hour. Big jobs that require overtime to complete get folks to work that overtime - even within a union. If it's not you, it's someon…

I've worked in union shops as well while not being in the union. Union overtime is highly coveted because it's a 2x-3x bonus that a lot of my union friends used towards a downpayment, kids' college tuition, retiring earlier, or starting a business. No one had to step up because everyone was stepping up. And the shop chief usually decided who got that overtime (i.e. young worker trying to buy a house might get higher…

It needs to be give and take on both sides, I went back to finish a presentation deck last night until 1am but I'll finish early in Friday or take time when it suits me and I don't have to tell my manager. One of the my direct reports took some time this morning to go do some person errands, didn't use vacation as he steps up when needed. He sent me a courtesy message to say he would be out for a few hours but it wasn't for approval. He gives when he needs to and he takes when he needs to and I trust him to manage that. But trust is needed and I've seen plenty of managers abuse people's goodwill, I can see why unions formalize that in a way.

Re: Why did I leave Google or, why did I stay so long?

#333

Post by izacus »

MattGaiser wrote: post #40

Do companies actually find themselves tons of employees that care so deeply about their mission that they sacrifice pay, equity, promotions, life interests, weekends, and benefits for "the cause"? I get having a team of 20 that is like this, but it does not seem like a concept that scales unless you are SpaceX.

Well this guy quit because Googlers wouldn't work weekends on his command so the answer might be... "no" ?

Re: Why did I leave Google or, why did I stay so long?

#334

Post by cactus2093 »

JKCalhoun wrote: post #239
serverholic wrote: post #218

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is also part of the argument for basic income. Having a stable source of income allows people to take risks like starting their own business or joining a small startup.

Or just a more lax unemployment policy. I worry that if you give everyone $1000/month: 1) you cannot live on $1000/month so it is an empty gesture 2) rent goes up $1000/month nationwide so it is an even emptier gesture

It seems pretty complex to design a version of a lax unemployment policy that eliminates steep cliffs that might disincentivize working, is fair, and also doesn't let anybody slip through the cracks. How do you handle someone quitting voluntarily, or retiring early, or starting their own business which doesn't pay them yet, or only paying themselves a small amount, or working a part-time job on the side while focusing on something else, etc.

The income tax code already exists and has to solve some of these problems, so it seems easier to give everyone the money and then tax it back from the highest earners later (or implement it as a negative income tax, but that has its own hurdles as well, i.e. imagine a homeless person needing to wait until tax season and then getting paid for the whole year, it would be a big hurdle and they'd still need other assistance programs the rest of the year if they didn't budget the money well enough).

Re: Why did I leave Google or, why did I stay so long?

#335

Post by sneak »

serverholic wrote: post #206
sneak wrote: post #178

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Google has been known to point out the perks, such as catering, when asked by candidates for more salary during negotiation, as well.

Yeah it's interesting that the person I was replying to used the word "privilege" when describing those perks. As if Google was doing this out of the goodness of their heart.

It can be privilege to have a job, any job, that comes with perks like included food, or healthcare, even if those are part of one's negotiated compensation package.

Re: Why did I leave Google or, why did I stay so long?

#336

Post by asidiali »

kryogen1c wrote: post #325
asidiali wrote: post #297

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This - the mental overhead of a software job is not something that is easily turned off during non work hours - especially with a pushy employer or coworkers with no work life balance themselves. You can’t cut steel at home after dinner no matter how hard you try if you don’t have the tools. Conversely, I’m sure you have a computer, can you just login to GitHub for two seconds to review this PR I submitted at 9pm...

> the mental overheard of a software job is not something that is easily turned off during non work hours this is very ignorant. the ability to leave work at work is a personality trait. the job, or type of job, has little to do with it. software development is not some exceptionally difficult thing that tortures and haunts developers.

> the ability to leave work at work is a personality trait. the job, or type of job, has little to do with it.

This is very ignorant.

There are many outside factors that go into if an employee needs to focus on work after hours, such as accessibility to the working environment, cultural practices at the company, etc.

Who said anything about haunting?

If my manager hits me up at 11pm asking for something, sure I can ignore him or her.

Then I come in the next day, they already did the thing they asked for themselves because [insert business reason], and says “never mind”.

Next time it happens, they go to the other dev who is happy to do it at 11pm.

Guess who gets the promotion?

Re: Why did I leave Google or, why did I stay so long?

#337

Post by amykyta »

dingo454 wrote: post #323
andrew_ wrote: post #225

It's astounding in so far as how unique this conversation is to tech. I've worked as a pipefitter, electrician's apprentice, and general construction hand in the past - I could only imagine how it would go telling my former foreman that I'd like to head off to yoga in the morning for an hour. Big jobs that require overtime to complete get folks to work that overtime - even within a union. If it's not you, it's someon…

I'm in IT, but I've worked as electrician and carpenter for some years. IMHO this is not easily comparable as you'd think. You can easily estimate the time required to perform some physical tasks. It's a bit different if you're working on something you never did before, but again as an electrician or carpenter this rarely happens after the training period. Working more hours generally does result in more work done, a…

The energy drain of software development is something I struggle with. I’ve worked as a painter and can relate to wrapping things up for the day and coming home physically exhausted but with energy remaining. Especially with Covid ‘work from anywhere all the time’ it’s very difficult to find a balance as a software slinger.

Re: Why did I leave Google or, why did I stay so long?

#338

Post by izacus »

tejohnso wrote: post #59

> It is practically impossible to fire someone for the basic reason that you don't need this role any more or there is a better person I found this surprising. I thought this was primarily a problem in union / government positions.

Considering his other values, the question here might be if he couldn't fire people for reasons the rest of the corporation considers normal - like taking time off, not working on weekends or similar.

For someone trying to do that, it might look like its "impossible for fire someone".

Re: Why did I leave Google or, why did I stay so long?

#339

Post by srndsnd »

slibhb wrote: post #280
serverholic wrote: post #149

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If google provides food for employees then that's essentially indirect compensation. Employees can now use the money they would have spent on food to buy other things. So now that they're remote and have to buy their own food they have effectively received a pay decrease. How is it entitled to complain about a decrease in compensation for the same work?

I find this legalistic perspective horrifying. It's as if you think every aspect of the relationship between you and your employer has to be written down as part of a contract and endlessly scrutinized. For me, and I expect for most humans, the ideal employer-employee relationship is much more tacit. It's like being part of a sports team. There are bounds of duty and privilege that are mutual, acceptable to all parti…

I think that's an exaggeration of what OP is saying. It's fuzzy, but there's a definitive distinction between "every aspect of your relationship" and benefits that impact someone's bottom line like free food.

OP did not say, and I wouldn't either, that every aspect of a employer-employee relationship should be documented and tracked like a PnL. But no one should pretend that it's not a debate over "unwritten compensation", and the value the employer gets from the employee. If employers didn't want to quantify that, there wouldn't be demand for corporate spyware and monitoring of employees. Yes, the Microsoft 365 option was shut down, but it's an arms race, and that's one battle in a war.

Why shouldn't employees want to extract the most value they can for their labor, and push back when the terms of that agreement change? If cost cutting or taking a loss necessitated a firing, would that "tacit relationship" prevent someone from being fired? My guess is no. Business is business, not personal.

Re: Why did I leave Google or, why did I stay so long?

#340

Post by CydeWeys »

madeofpalk wrote: post #74
itg wrote: post #24

Another "leader" who complains about employees wanting work life balance and they are extremely entitled. These are the type of managers you want to avoid. I'm sure many Googlers are happy you left.

"I don't believe long hours are a badge of honor but I also believe that we have to do whatever it takes to win, even if its on a weekend." lmao what a terrible, horrible manager. I would hate working for them, and I would not miss them leaving. Maybe I'm just playing into their "young people don't want to work" stereotype, but if that's what working means, I don't want to do it with them.

And that's easy to say for someone who has a large equity stake in the company, who is directly rewarded for working very hard like that. Ridiculous for them to impose it on others though who are salaried employees and aren't rewarded for all this extra work.

If you want me to work as hard as you are, pay me. Take my total annual compensation, divide it by 2087, and give me 2X that amount as overtime to work nights and weekends in excess of 40 hours/week. I'd do it. If he's actually willing to put his money where his mouth is I bet he'd get plenty of takers to work that hard. But I bet he isn't; he just wants to get lots of extra work out of his employees for free.

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