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Termux no longer updated on Google Play

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Re: Termux no longer updated on Google Play

#331
post #312

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> some coding session What does that even mean? > Apparently the 10 years I spent programming across 8 bit and 16 bit platforms At the time you never touched a command line or a compiler? You keep replying to but you haven't gotten anywhere near a point. > As of the existing solutions being lacking, don't wait for Google, produce it, and sell it on the store. You can't even build it -- the store is now restrictive en…

Naturally I touched a compiler, IDEs were already a thing, just like AIDE is an option on Android. And command lines that were 100% unrelated to UNIX, just like some that exist today on Android, written in Java/Kotlin. A command line doesn't need to be yet another bash clone. WSL on Windows is Microsoft's marketing to FOSS developers that rather give money to Apple to build their beautiful GNU/Linux apps instead of s…

> just like AIDE is an option on Android.

It's an option but it's pretty terrible. It's basically the state of the art on Android and it gets worse from there.

> A command line doesn't need to be yet another bash clone.

No, but if your platform already runs Linux then it's a pretty good choice. Plus, at this point, it has the largest body of code/scripting available. I don't want a command line that doesn't run anything just like I don't want an OS that doesn't run anything.

> Turbo Pascal for Android is called Kotlin.

Kotlin runs on Android?

Re: Termux no longer updated on Google Play

#332

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> General-purpose computing is not being attacked or eliminated. Yes, it is: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24866279 . > Hobbyists and specialists can buy products for them if they like. Which phones can I buy to enjoy the freedom of general-purpose computing (and not suffer from non-mature ecosystem)? Which vendors manufacture hardware compatible with FLOSS? > The monopoly discussion is a red herring because m…

> Which phones can I buy to enjoy the freedom of general-purpose computing (and not suffer from non-mature ecosystem)? Does Libram not count? Why do you get to also demand a mature ecosystem? This feels like demanding that corporations build a product specifically because you want it. There are precious few markets where we demand that businesses provide a product that the market wouldn't naturally demand, and I pers…

Librem 5 counts [0], but it just started shipping. You can only get one in several months if you buy it now. Even for Librem 5, there is a problem of proprietary software in WiFi, Bluetooth and modem. It was a great struggle of Purism to find reasonable hardware, all vendors refuse to support FLOSS [1].

> since Android has never really satisfied FLOSS-advocate goals

Android was never FLOSS and it's getting even worse. AOSP is FLOSS, but you cannot use it without proprietary drivers. The latter force you to replace your phone every 2-3 years resulting in huge e-waste. It should definitely be "a market where we demand that businesses provide a product", at least for the nature.

> Why do you get to also demand a mature ecosystem?

Because many businesses and even governments force you to use either iPhone or Android. If I choose a GNU/Linux phone, I cannot use their services at all.

[0] Precursor would be more appropriate here, but it's only on preorder and is extremely slow, and lacks the modem: https://www.crowdsupply.com/sutajio-kosagi/precursor.

[1] https://puri.sm/posts/breaking-ground/

Re: Termux no longer updated on Google Play

#333
post #312

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Naturally I touched a compiler, IDEs were already a thing, just like AIDE is an option on Android. And command lines that were 100% unrelated to UNIX, just like some that exist today on Android, written in Java/Kotlin. A command line doesn't need to be yet another bash clone. WSL on Windows is Microsoft's marketing to FOSS developers that rather give money to Apple to build their beautiful GNU/Linux apps instead of s…

> just like AIDE is an option on Android. It's an option but it's pretty terrible. It's basically the state of the art on Android and it gets worse from there. > A command line doesn't need to be yet another bash clone. No, but if your platform already runs Linux then it's a pretty good choice. Plus, at this point, it has the largest body of code/scripting available. I don't want a command line that doesn't run anyth…

Android doesn't run Linux, it is an implementation detail, Google could replace it by BSD on Android 12 and no well behaved application would notice, given that syscalls aren't part of the public APIs.

Kotlin is the main official language since 2 years now, it shows how much you know Android.

Re: Termux no longer updated on Google Play

#334
post #333

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> just like AIDE is an option on Android. It's an option but it's pretty terrible. It's basically the state of the art on Android and it gets worse from there. > A command line doesn't need to be yet another bash clone. No, but if your platform already runs Linux then it's a pretty good choice. Plus, at this point, it has the largest body of code/scripting available. I don't want a command line that doesn't run anyth…

Android doesn't run Linux, it is an implementation detail, Google could replace it by BSD on Android 12 and no well behaved application would notice, given that syscalls aren't part of the public APIs. Kotlin is the main official language since 2 years now, it shows how much you know Android.

> Android doesn't run Linux

It literally does. It doesn't run GNU/Linux. And the native non-Java API is usable by Android applications so it's not just an implementation detail. In fact, I suspect most games are developed this way. This shows how much you know about Android. Google even calls this the Native Development Kit.

> Kotlin is the main official language since 2 years now

Kotlin doesn't run on Android. You need a "real" computer to run Kotlin. It's not an Android native development tool. Why you bothered to bring it up when it's outside the scope of this conversation, I don't know.

Re: Termux no longer updated on Google Play

#335
post #333

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Android doesn't run Linux, it is an implementation detail, Google could replace it by BSD on Android 12 and no well behaved application would notice, given that syscalls aren't part of the public APIs. Kotlin is the main official language since 2 years now, it shows how much you know Android.

> Android doesn't run Linux It literally does. It doesn't run GNU/Linux. And the native non-Java API is usable by Android applications so it's not just an implementation detail. In fact, I suspect most games are developed this way. This shows how much you know about Android. Google even calls this the Native Development Kit. > Kotlin is the main official language since 2 years now Kotlin doesn't run on Android. You n…

Apparently it does run

https://developer.android.com/kotlin

So my phone is a real computer.

Here find out the Linux APIs on the NDK.

https://developer.android.com/ndk/guides/stable_apis

ISO C and C++ standard libraries

OpenGL, Vulkan, OpenSL, OpenMax, Khronos standards

Android specific native APIs.

Zero Linux specific APIs.

Any OS can provide them, and most of them are already on Fuchsia.

Re: Termux no longer updated on Google Play

#336

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Take a look at Amazon's DRM -- it doesn't matter if you as a consumer wake up one day and realize that there are negative consequences to being unable to port your library to any other devices. You still can't do it. Because almost no one actually cares that you can't port your library to any other devices, Amazon's DRM is well known by now and they certainly don't mislead customers into thinking their books are DR…

> Most people are content with Amazon DRM, and when they aren't, any company that sells DRM-free books will make a killing. > If you have reason to believe Amazon is somehow preventing consumers from buying DRM-free books, I'd be happy to hear it. Look, we can get into the nitty gritty details, but if we're going to have this debate, you have to do some basic research online to see how Amazon is currently hurting the…

There's no misunderstanding that DRM prevents ecosystem portability, but consumers know about this and consistently buy into them. Just like how they know that Apple iMessage only works with other iPhone users to the chagrin of their Android friends, and still buy into it, sometimes because of the exclusivity. No one registers for an Apple Card thinking it's compatible with Android. "Superior" DRM-free book ecosystems already exist and you've probably seen people promoting these ecosystems to regular consumers with clear explanations of how DRM-free helps ecosystem portability; If you've ever tried to promote this kind of thing you know the kind of blank stare or apathetic silence this is met with.

DRM is an old technique that's been a staple of digital markets almost as long as digital markets have existed. Switching costs and proprietary lock-in are even older concepts. Every market participant knows about them and invests accordingly. You think when the iPhone came out, people didn't leave anything behind? How did RIM's BBM lock-in work out for them? How did iOS ever thrive without Office & Windows integration, lock-ins that Microsoft tried to exploit? Or what about Internet Explorer, which despite huge antitrust action, Microsoft was allowed to continue bundling and defaulting? How did Microsoft's thought-to-be unassailable lock-in work out for them in the server market? Did Linus go to Congress complaining "how can you expect Windows users to say: well fine, I'll just throw away my Windows software, It's no big deal."? This is what happens when consumers in the server market actually give a shit about openness: a completely open ecosystem actually wins.

There's no lack of understanding, consumers see these walled gardens and say "I want in". They know the switching costs and go in anyway. If low-cost switching was actually important to them they would invest accordingly as consumers do in markets where interoperability and openness is actually important. If their locked-in product is actually serving them poorly, they will actually switch.

---

A) I also don't believe that customers magically become stupid or smart based on whether they're holding a smartphone or a credit card. Here's what I also believe: You can be smart yet still be terrible and unskilled at device security. Conflating the intelligence of a consumer with their security skill doesn't make sense at all. Security is a complex and technical field.

B) So who forced or deceived consumers into buying an iPhone? Who forced or deceived them into buy DRM'd books from Amazon? If people genuinely didn't want to be in Apple's walled garden, they wouldn't have gone in to begin with. If they actually cared about openness, they certainly wouldn't repeatedly buy an iPhone.

No, people don't take every opportunity to install apps from outside or disable restrictions. Jailbreaking was well-known and remarkably easy at one point (I think it's harder now?), and it was popular within certain circles but it was never even close to a majority of iOS users. The number of people who install stuff like F-Droid and sideload apps is a tiny fraction of Android users. I doubt the majority of Android users have ever sideloaded anything. Desktop platforms like Windows/macOS/Linux are much more sideload-happy, but desktop marketshare is losing ground to more locked down platforms like Android & iOS. That's the behavior of consumers who are happy with locked down platforms and don't care for general purpose computing.

> There is a nontrivial percentage of Apple customers who switch to iOS because they're worried about their SMS message bubbles getting colored green. You can't seriously argue that those people are making a security decision.

Yes I can, their decision is "SMS message bubbles are the most important difference to me". For them, other factors like security or lock-in are less/not important. If I willingly choose to buy a product that lacks something compared to competitors, it's a pretty clear indication that is something I prioritize less. That's going to be the case for many consumers, security is not their top concern, but it is usually a factor, especially if there are serious discrepancies between competitors. For example, app selection is usually not a factor because both platforms broadly share major apps and there is little noticeable difference between them. With Android taking steps to move closer to iOS' security model like mentioned in the article, Google is reducing the noticeable difference in security between both platforms so it becomes less of an important factor. Security was far more of a factor in Android's early days when it wasn't rare to hear people note Android's terrible security before buying an iPhone.

In the US, Apple doesn't necessarily hold a large majority but they are something like half the market all by themselves. They are also more profitable, which means consumers value and want them more. It's true that price is one of the largest factors between Android & Apple, but at the high-end range of phones where price is less of a confounding variable, Apple is still the brand of choice. Android has recently moved closer to iOS in security model as mentioned in the article, and I think that helps Android stand stronger against the iPhone at the high-end.

Re: Termux no longer updated on Google Play

#337

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think it would be sadder if mom and dad had terrible security and lost their savings or treasured memories as a result. Optimizing for one group is always going to cause some problems for a different group, and if I had to choose I'd optimize for the majority every time.

But you're sailing along with a false dichotomy. We can have hardware that is safe for mom and dad, and open for professionals.

I'll just have to disagree that it's a false dichotomy. System openness is diametrically opposed to security; the more open a system is, the more insecure it becomes. This is especially true for mainstream consumers who have little knowledge or skill to administrate open systems securely. It's one of the classic engineering trade-offs, thinking you can have your cake and eat it to seems pretty ignorant to me.

Re: Termux no longer updated on Google Play

#338

Earlier quoted context omitted.

General-purpose computing protects people from being trapped in a walled garden, from dealing with the monopoly. You bought a phone and you can only ask the vendor to fix and update it, not anyone else. Replace "a phone" with "a car" or "a tractor" [0] and see how ridiculous and anti-consumer it is. The current state results in a huge amount of e-waste instead of encouraging reuse of the smartphones. [0] https://news…

General-purpose computing is not being attacked or eliminated. Hobbyists and specialists can buy products for them if they like. The monopoly discussion is a red herring because monopolies are bad regardless of whether those business offer fully customizable software.

20 years ago, every computer available was a general purpose computer.

Today, very few computers available are gpc.

Re: Termux no longer updated on Google Play

#339
post #184

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>But those are by far the minority of apps, and it seems crazy to make a pretty massive security tradeoff for something that 99% of apps don't need to do. It also completely eliminates general purpose computing. >One solution might be a special permission to be allowed to do that, but it seems unlikely a user could really make an informed decision. I think the way "Developer Mode" on Android is implemented is pretty…

Letting people eliminate general purpose computing is the point. That program permits you to say "as of this moment, all the apps that comprise this device's purpose have been installed, and computing should cease being general, and should instead be limited to only those apps (including upgrades)". This isn't something I'd do for my development device, but I can see how it's a desirable policy for some people.

I don't think it's desirable for most people, they just don't realize what they're missing.

Re: Termux no longer updated on Google Play

#340

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Most people are content with Amazon DRM, and when they aren't, any company that sells DRM-free books will make a killing. > If you have reason to believe Amazon is somehow preventing consumers from buying DRM-free books, I'd be happy to hear it. Look, we can get into the nitty gritty details, but if we're going to have this debate, you have to do some basic research online to see how Amazon is currently hurting the…

There's no misunderstanding that DRM prevents ecosystem portability, but consumers know about this and consistently buy into them. Just like how they know that Apple iMessage only works with other iPhone users to the chagrin of their Android friends, and still buy into it, sometimes because of the exclusivity. No one registers for an Apple Card thinking it's compatible with Android. "Superior" DRM-free book ecosystem…

> which despite huge antitrust action, Microsoft was allowed to continue bundling and defaulting?

> how did iOS ever thrive without Office & Windows integration, lock-ins that Microsoft tried to exploit?

You need to go back and reread the history here.

I think you have a fundamentally flawed view of how the market works. I'm not sure what else I can say except that markets don't work the way you think they do.

That's not a Libertarian or Socialist or Ancap thing, you can belong to any political spectrum while still understanding that profit is not a perfect representation of value, and that the market is a system that reflects the education of its participants, and that markets can have unoptimal outcomes sometimes.

In a weird way, what you are saying would be correct if the market worked the way you think it did. Except it doesn't, and you're misunderstanding the history of all of the cases you site (and conveniently leaving out really important stories like Bell Labs and the history of the Internet), and you're creating an alternative history where lock-in just kind of doesn't have any effect on anything, and where the market just kind of magically solves all of the problems it creates, and where we haven't had significant legislation to fix these problems.

At some point you have to go back and critically examine those assumptions, they're just not true. Even Conservative circles are going to laugh you out of conversations if you come in with an economic model that isn't sophisticated enough to explain phenomenons like forced arbitration or externalities like pollution. Perfectly efficient markets do not exist, every market has some inefficiency and some instances of consumers exercising their purchasing power against their own interest.

> They are also more profitable, which means consumers value and want them more.

Again, this is just not how markets work or what profit represents. There isn't a perfect one-to-one link between profit margins and consumer value.

> It's true that price is one of the largest factors between Android & Apple, but at the high-end range of phones where price is less of a confounding variable, Apple is still the brand of choice.

And again, this is not really a valid way to think about market data. Anyway, it doesn't matter because according to your worldview the only thing that matters is what consumers choose, and consumers have clearly overwhelmingly chosen that they want the cheaper phones instead of the flagships.

> For them, other factors like security or lock-in are less/not important.

Right, they're not thinking about security and they don't care about it, they care about the green bubble. The security of the phone is irrelevant, and it doesn't make sense to look at their purchasing decisions as some kind of validation of Apple's security model because they don't care, it is not a factor in their purchasing decisions.

If Apple allowed sideloading tomorrow, their purchasing decisions would not change. So why on earth would we use them as examples to say that sideloading is a problem?

> Conflating the intelligence of a consumer with their security skill doesn't make sense at all.

I don't need to be a plumbing expert to know not to take apart my toilet. Nobody needs to be a security expert to know not to flip a switch or mess with default security settings. It's not a complicated system, when I don't know how something works, I just don't mess with it.

I'm not going to let you walk away from the fact that you're saying customers are perfectly informed about the tradeoffs of buying into an ecosystem, but too stupid to be taught not to press a single, clearly market button buried in a phone's settings. That is a contradiction.

> I doubt the majority of Android users have ever sideloaded anything.

Then why is it a security risk to give them the option? You're arguing that iOS is more secure because it doesn't offer people the option to do something that you don't think they would do.

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