Earlier quoted context omitted.
I'm not the OC but many of my friends and peers are trans and I find "agender" to be the most useful descriptor to myself. One thing I've noted is that once you start to identify the ways in which gender is fundamentally a social construct the link with autistic/neurodivergent folks makes much more sense. Anybody who struggles to instinctively navigate social norms and behaviors will also struggle to instinctively na…
> Anybody who struggles to instinctively navigate social norms and behaviors will also struggle to instinctively navigate gendered norms and behaviors, simply because the two are inextricable. But if masculine and feminine gender roles are equally difficult to navigate, that doesn't explain why transitioning would help. You'd just be swapping out one difficult gender role with another.
Elevated rates of autism in transgender and gender-diverse individuals
331–340 of 358 posts
Re: Elevated rates of autism in transgender and gender-diverse individuals
#332Earlier quoted context omitted.
> Should intersex conditions be considered normal human genetic variances (like eye colour), or genetic disorders (like Down Syndrome)? Doesn't really matter, for this purpose. > I’d argue that humans are indeed binary sexed, and immutably so. Unless you defining terms such that the variations are not merely disorders but actually nonhuman, you are clearly wrong; human alignments of sex characteristics are non-binary…
> human alignments of sex characteristics are non-binary though bimodal. You either produce sperm, or ova - or neither (which if caused genetically is an abnormal variant). “Producing the wrong gamete for one’s perceived gender doesn’t construct an additional sex, nor alter the definition of sex such that there are female sperm / male ova producers - this holds even if that perception has genetic as well as psycho-en…
it's god of the gaps thinking, people are addicted to drawing clean lines around discrete categories as a vestige of modernism. taxonomy brain. we don't have good ways to say "there are two major clustering points, which most people are roughly close enough to one or the other to call them that, but there's enough overlap and so many dimensions that it makes drawing clean boundaries impossible"
I suspect as gene sequencing gets commoditized and personalized medicine actually becomes practical, we'll find a lot more cases where it makes sense to analyze people on the basis of their individual traits rather than what broad groups we can class them under
Re: Elevated rates of autism in transgender and gender-diverse individuals
#333Earlier quoted context omitted.
I think it is disingenuous to expect me to post rigorously cited studies and contrasting my response to the original article, when I was instead responding to some conjecture made in this thread. Mostly with a personal anecdote, with some sources mirroring and expanding on such. I also think a lot of your points are made in bad faith: * Taking a joke way too serious, in order to discredit the author. Based on what ex…
I don't expect you to provide references as part of our discussion. Just your well-argued opinion is enough to move the thread along. But I find Zinnia problematic because her playing researcher has the potential to cause harm to others. Plus I wasn't referring to her joke, I was referring to the part where she attempted to shame cis guys into not excluding trans women, which is obviously useful for her, but also obv…
Anyway, if you just wanted more studies, you could've just let me known. I was not expecting to be attacked on the impact factor or size of the citation pool - I was aiming to provide a study with an easy to read abstract, but have a few studies that are strong in at least one of those factors.
Neurology:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2754583/
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S00223...
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S00223...
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4585501/
And the "transition is beneficial" master list:
https://whatweknow.inequality.cornell.edu/topics/lgbt-equali...
Re: Elevated rates of autism in transgender and gender-diverse individuals
#334Earlier quoted context omitted.
What is the "correct" gender for an intersex person, or someone born without genitalia, or someone with 45,X/46,XY mosaicism?
Like all genders, I would ask them what is “correct.” If you’re asking about _sex_, however... in the case of intersex conditions, they arise from a disorder of sexual development which by definition arises by diverging from the typical developmental pathway of one sex or the other. Much the same as someone with a much later and artificial divergence (e.g. hysterectomy), this sex is still their sex despite their inte…
Ah, we've switched arguments. Upthread, you stated:
> And for most people, “man” and “male” are synonyms.
If you're now arguing for a distinction between the terms, we're now in agreement.
Re: Elevated rates of autism in transgender and gender-diverse individuals
#335Can someone answer my genuine question on this topic? At my high school in California I knew a trans girl (m to f used she/her) that was super chill and maybe a bit on the spectrum. At the same time there were a couple dozen girls that called themselves trans and asked everyone to use they/them but acted and dressed all 100% within female stereotypes (not that trans is about stereotypes I’m just illustrating my point…
briefly, expecting a trans person to have dysmorphia is called "transmedicalism." it's highly controversial in the trans community because on the one side you have people who suffer from gender dysmorphia who don't always like the idea that other people are transitioning because of a preference; on the other side you have people advocate that gender identity is a personal choice and should not be subject to a particu…
* it usually relies on very narrow definitions of gender dysphoria. The relation between gender dysphoria and gender euphoria for instance is often discarded. Gender dysphoria itself is poorly defined and often does not specifically manifest as gender-related until the idea is confronted. Lots of trans people suppressed for years or sometimes decades because they thought their pain was not specific enough to not be rejected by gatekeeping.
* it does not account for people that feel more comfortable outside the gender binary, no matter if they want to medically transition (some do). Transmeds and "truscum" often require strict adherence to binary gender norms, in alignment to historical guidelines where doing anything not absolutely in alignment with your binary gender would set you back significantly.
Re: Elevated rates of autism in transgender and gender-diverse individuals
#336Earlier quoted context omitted.
First off: yes, trans tends to be an umbrella term these days. >how are people who still live their cis-lives, happy and don't really plan anything medical trans? Or is trans today just a catch-all phrase for everything a little androgynous? If I understand correctly, you're misinterpreting this graf: >When I go to (back when travel was a thing) places that are less friendly than the coasts and people see the trans f…
So I got that after someone here talked about being nearly trans, because he had no stereotypical feelings? Shouldn't that be normal that your mood changes and you like different things on different days and in different stages of your life? I somehow find it very strange that now people are trying to box "normal" (as in that's how our system is supposed to work) behavior into "trans" - what's the purpose of that? I'…
Regarding what transitioning is. For some people, transition can be entirely social with no medical element. Hormones are not a required part of medical transition. I know at lease one trans person who has had some surgery and no hormones ever, by choice. I also know of two trans people who have had some medical transition but haven’t socially transitioned.
For many trans people, there’s a set of incongruities between how they experience themselves and how they are seen, their bodies, how they’re allowed to present themselves, etc. Things that are actively distressing for one trans person may not bother another one. One way to look at transition is the process addressing the important (to the individual) self-perceived incongruities.
Regarding how many trans people there are and how do I know so many. Everyone I have spoken about is someone that I have met in person. A couple of hundred, at least. A lot of that is involvement in LGBTQ rights, which tends to put me in the presence of people who are social super-connectors. Some of that was a period of being the only out executive at a big company. There was a while where HR would give my contact info to every person who told them of a desire to transition at work.
But the two biggest factors are a) living somewhere that it’s relatively safe to transition and b) being deliberately visible in a lot of ways. Trans people absolutely migrate to places where they can be themselves safely. Trans people pretty much have full legal equality in California (not The same as social equality). So trans people come here. Washington and Oregon come close to legal equality, as does most of the east coast as far south as Virginia. A lot of cities in otherwise hostile states provide protections. Iowa City and a few other towns in Iowa are decent places to be trans. And even without legal protections, some places are islands of relative safety.
So, in my extended community of friends there are several trans people, and not because I sought them out. Just because there are a lot of trans people here. Three people from the 50-odd person Company I worked at in 2008 have subsequently come out as trans (pre-transition for me and the introduction to them was made by a former Wall Street colleague).
Being willing to be publicly identified as trans means cis friends connect me to trans friends, especially those just coming out. Occasionally some of those people become friends.
Closeted trans people are still trans. Many trans people regard themselves as having always been trans, even though they figured it out later in life. Some trans people talk about “before I was trans”. There’s no monolith of experience or language for describing it.
I actually think the number of trans people is closer to 2-3%, but the studies for that have methodological problems (the percentage is much higher, but there’s a failure to distinguish between types of gender non-conformity). I don’t really care, other than the increasing number of people who decide transition being seen as contagion.
There is one thing that’s “contagious”. Seeing a happy trans person changes your world if your trans and you believe trans people are sad and tragic. You can’t unsee that. Almost every trans person I know has some story about how someone they barely knew came to them and told them that seeing them changed their lives.
Re: Elevated rates of autism in transgender and gender-diverse individuals
#337Earlier quoted context omitted.
As a trans non-autist who grew up embracing a uniquely girly personality (and was accepted by friends and family as just being uncommonly feminine) I can say that this did not reduce the impact of gender dysphoria. Especially after looking at the community at large, I believe these are entirely unrelated issues.
I was trying to argue the other direction: Maybe some autists will mistake their acceptance issues as gender dysphoria, thereby leading to a higher trans percentage among autists (which was the main observation from the paper). As such, I disagree with you that trans and autism are unrelated issues, because the paper measured a correlation. It's just that nobody knows in which direction the effect goes.
Measuring a correlation says nothing about causation (either way; there's a lot of room for confounding factors). The implication that autistic people will "mistake" their dysphoria is incredibly patronizing and just frankly rude.
Re: Elevated rates of autism in transgender and gender-diverse individuals
#338Earlier quoted context omitted.
It's not really about the traits, though. You're making a category error if you think this is about gender stereotypes at root. It's possible that some people transition mostly because of gender roles, but for a lot of us it's because our bodies feel wrong on a fundamental level. It's hard to explain exactly what this means but suffice it to say it's unpleasant enough that it makes transition worth it for a lot of tr…
Ok, if I'm making a category error, then, why do we have this transgender debate over the transsexuality-debate (which imo is different, because people there are actively using medicine to change facts about their body, which is not necessary true for any transgender?)? And what makes cis-gender then, except the fact that you are fine to be called he/she? > to choose the gendered existence they most desire so: what i…
Transgender people can get HRT, socially transition, and undergo GCS. The people who use the term "transsexual" to describe themselves today are usually doing so to draw a line in the sand between those who are "trenders" and those who are "true trans". This line in the sand can be identifying as a man or woman and not taking anything else seriously (regardless of HRT and GCS status), demanding rigid gender role conformity, or wanting to exclude those who are unable to afford/access HRT and/or GCS from being trans. If you want to see how deep this rabbit hole goes, google "truscum" and "transmedicalism".
The term "transgender" is considered the more appropriate term, and the initial push for it was that "transsexual" sounded like it was a sexual orientation. It is only relatively recently that using "transsexual" became a bit of a political stance within the trans community.
> And what makes cis-gender then, except the fact that you are fine to be called he/she?
If you are cisgender, you agree with the sex you were assigned at birth. That does not mean you must agree with or conform to most or all of the cultural expectations foisted upon you due to what you were assigned at birth, just that the sex you were assigned at birth seems right and does not clash with your gender identity.[0]
There is some debate over whether non-binary individuals are transgender, but given that most definitions of transgender revolve around someone's gender identity being at odds with the sex they were assigned at birth, unless they were pronounced non-binary at birth (which does not happen to my knowledge), they are trans. That said, using the transgender label is an individual decision - trans people who "go stealth" (typically involving moving to a new place and abandoning your old friends so nobody would know you are trans and never telling anyone about your past) would not use the label publicly, but it does not make them not-trans. In addition, many non-binary people view themselves as unworthy of the transgender label or do not use it in order to avoid stigma and invasive questions. This is a personal choice and I do not blame people for not wanting to tell others they are trans, whether they identify firmly as male or female, or somewhere in-between.
[0] I want to elaborate on this point - gender identity can really be thought of as the "sex" of your brain. The sexual differentiation of the genitals occurs during the first 2 months of pregnancy, while the sexual differentiation of the brain occurs during the second half of pregnancy. If there are plenty of androgens (testosterone, DHT, etc) in the womb during the first 2 months but few during the second half, you could have a child with masculinized genitals but a feminized brain (a trans woman), and vice-versa for trans men.[1] (I have not found any research related to this and non-binary individuals, unfortunately.) However, an imbalance between these periods does not guarantee a trans child - we do not fully understand the mechanisms at play, but it appears that there is a genetic component,[2] so there is no way to predict if someone will turn out trans or not.
[1] https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/21094885/
[2] http://www.hawaii.edu/PCSS/biblio/articles/2010to2014/2013-t...
Re: Elevated rates of autism in transgender and gender-diverse individuals
#339Earlier quoted context omitted.
Can you elaborate on this more? I meant "sex" in the way that my physician would use the word. I'm aware of things like intersex conditions but, unless someone is actually intersex or otherwise complicated, your reply doesn't really answer my original question.
I'm not that poster but I can elaborate. Basically your physician couldn't easily use "biological sex" as a blanket term to accurately asses the risk factors and health needs of a medically transitioned person. Our sex is "otherwise complicated." The reason for this is that medical transition, primarily through the mechanism of hormone replacement therapy, actually changes some aspects of biological sex and the assoc…
Re: Elevated rates of autism in transgender and gender-diverse individuals
#340Earlier quoted context omitted.
"After reading the article, I had a strong feeling that the author is probably selling related drugs and has a financial incentive to classify everything as trans symptoms." For the record, this is just totally false, Zinnia does not sell drugs (do you mean HRT? That would be illegal in the US without a medical or pharmacy license). "she's calling herself "adult demon anti-cis pro-trans activist" elsewhere" Pretty su…
I also did not find any evidence of Zinnia benefiting financially from drug sales. But just reading her writing, I couldn't shake the feeling that Zinnia has a very strong interest in increasing the rate of "gender dysphoria" diagnosis. Plus it is very obvious that Zinnia is not a neutral researcher on this topic. As for the journal, EJN has an impact factor of 2.9. As a student, I used to publish stuff for fun in an…
I'm not trying to claim anything about the science in this particular article because I haven't read it in enough detail but a PI I worked with had this habit of dismissing research based on journal IFs, which was pretty annoying.