Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Elevated rates of autism in transgender and gender-diverse individuals

nature.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

131–140 of 358 posts

Re: Elevated rates of autism in transgender and gender-diverse individuals

#131

Post by empthought »

davmar wrote: post #112
empthought wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

See, this is an exercise in deliberate confusion. If someone said I was female, of course I would contradict them if it was warranted. My male characteristics are objectively verifiable, up to and including having sired children rather than having given birth to them. My identity has nothing to do with any of this. And for most people, “man” and “male” are synonyms. This is why people always express confusion about w…

it's only confusing because you're not aware of the difference between sex and gender. take a look at this article i found from a quick google: https://www.healthline.com/health/sex-vs-gender#gender

Oh, I’m well aware.

https://sexandgenderintro.com/

Re: Elevated rates of autism in transgender and gender-diverse individuals

#132

Post by ceejayoz »

empthought wrote: post #127
ceejayoz wrote: post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But that's the point, isn't it? "Sex is about reproduction" is as silly as "people who lose their legs aren't humans", because both are clearly untrue.

Yes, people who lose their ability to walk are still human, and people who lose their ability to produce sperm are still male.

What is the "correct" gender for an intersex person, or someone born without genitalia, or someone with 45,X/46,XY mosaicism?

Re: Elevated rates of autism in transgender and gender-diverse individuals

#133

Post by empthought »

Pfhreak wrote: post #125
empthought wrote: post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Terms change; distinctions between similar terms get made as they’re needed. And the distinction among “man,” “woman,” and “non-binary” without referencing sex is explained... how exactly? > I’m infertile, so “sex is about reproduction” makes me chuckle a bit, for example. I am now infertile too; doesn’t change the fact that I know which one of only two kinds of gametes (“sex” cells) my body could produce.

> And the distinction among “man,” “woman,” and “non-binary” without referencing sex is explained... how exactly? It's the difference between "maleness" and "manliness". Those words are clearly related, but they mean different things. See also: "femaleness" vs. "feminine". The latter term in either case describes cultural behaviors, clothing, accepted roles, and a whole bunch of other stuff that isn't the same as the…

See, I view this as a system of oppression. “Manly” characteristics are those that are societally praiseworthy for males but considered negative for females, and “womanly” the reverse.

I actively seek to avoid that game, as it is untenable in a just society.

Re: Elevated rates of autism in transgender and gender-diverse individuals

#134

Post by [deleted] »

hackmiester wrote: post #74
School-Cotton wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s not clear to me what this means. I’ve never made any positive choice to be a man. I’ve never told anyone “I’m a man”. But everyone somehow concludes that I’m a man. What does it mean to “identify as” something?

It means you come to a conclusion that you are that something. This may or may not coincide with your outward appearance or anything else.

[deleted]

Re: Elevated rates of autism in transgender and gender-diverse individuals

#135

Post by zanny »

vmception wrote: post #11

Some detractors often say transgender people have mental health issues. But they mean it in the sense that they should be in an asylum or should not be catered to. A reality is that: A) Gender dysphoria is an imbalance of neural state. Therefore that would by definition be a mental health issue but not like the detractors say. B) Acknowledging and accommodating gender dysphoria discomfort costs cisgender people nothi…

Being inclusionary isn't costless - historically the marginalization of trans (or other minority groups) gave the establishment / mainstream / cis in this case peoples power to dictate the material conditions of that group. The marginalization of trans people empowered the rest to drive them to suicide or normalize their abuse. That kind of power dynamic is appealing to sociopaths and other hostile personality types.

That doesn't create any economic benefit of course - bigotry in general is an economic impediment. That does not stop its widespread practice, it just means that in macrospect practitioners of hate repress their populaces productive potential and we can hope over sufficient time frames that leads to their own self inflicted obsolescence.

Re: Elevated rates of autism in transgender and gender-diverse individuals

#136

Post by Pfhreak »

lemonberry wrote: post #16
Pfhreak wrote: post #7

Hanging out in trans circles (as a non-binary person myself), this seems commonly known within the community. Interesting to see research done here, but I'd be careful about over generalizing (e.g. "All trans people are neurodiverse"). Edit: Also, happy to answer questions about being non-binary (specifically, gender fluid) if folks have good faith questions.

Have you heard of Abigail Shrier's book "The Transgender Craze Seducing Our Daughters"? She was on Joe Rogan's podcast recently though I have yet to listen to it. A quick search turned up, not surprisingly, some negative critiques and others that are more positive. If you have heard of it, or read it, I'd love to hear what you think of her position. I appreciate the offer to be part of a dialogue. I think it's import…

I haven't heard of it. Reading the synopsis on Amazon suggests that it's not something I'd find much to agree with. While I do believe that trans identities are in the forefront of the discourse right now and that some folks might be inclined to question their identities more, I don't find the idea that kids are being forced into a craze very compelling. (Shrier's writing reminds me of the satanic panic of the 80s, where my parents were asking me if I was worshiping satan because I played D&D.)

I went through, as an adult, a period where I was sure I was a trans woman, and I sought therapy. This led to experimentation and further discussions that no, that wasn't the right label for me. I do regret, even as someone who is masculine presenting most of the time, that I didn't have more of a choice in my hormonal changes during my teens. Many bodily changes via testosterone are irreversible, and it would have really helped me had someone said, "let's hold off on those changes for just a little bit so we can figure out what makes you feel right."

So, that's a bit anecdotal, and it definitely doesn't apply to every child's situation, but I sure wish that we had the resources and available knowledge back then that we do now, because I probably would have taken a different path.

Re: Elevated rates of autism in transgender and gender-diverse individuals

#137

Post by empthought »

ceejayoz wrote: post #132
empthought wrote: post #127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, people who lose their ability to walk are still human, and people who lose their ability to produce sperm are still male.

What is the "correct" gender for an intersex person, or someone born without genitalia, or someone with 45,X/46,XY mosaicism?

Like all genders, I would ask them what is “correct.”

If you’re asking about _sex_, however...

in the case of intersex conditions, they arise from a disorder of sexual development which by definition arises by diverging from the typical developmental pathway of one sex or the other. Much the same as someone with a much later and artificial divergence (e.g. hysterectomy), this sex is still their sex despite their intersex condition.

Being born “without genitalia” is still going to be one of these conditions, or the result of some other unspecified trauma or non-sexual-development disorder. They would still be either one sex or the other.

Mosaicism is an interesting case. It would depend on which cells were activating sexual development.

Re: Elevated rates of autism in transgender and gender-diverse individuals

#138

Post by bobthechef »

ceejayoz wrote: post #101
eanzenberg wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Don’t they have much higher suicide rates? How happy can that be?

Abused children also have high suicide rates, but that's presumably not because of some inherent internal tendency to suicide, right?

Not a question of inherent tendency but cause of. Those who have elected to adapt to their convictions through surgery, hormones, etc. still have very high suicide rates. The studies (I don’t have them handy) undermine the notion that the increased risk and incidence of suicide of “pre-transition” individuals with gender dysphoria are suicidal because they’re “forced” to live in a way that seems to then to be at odds with how they feel. But we find that “post-transition” we still see high rates. Some claim that this is because of the environment, but I believe that was also addressed and found unconvincing.

On the other hand, I have heard therapy for gender dysphoria (GD), such as that which addresses GD in children, can be highly effective in resolving whatever issues that are causing the confusion in the first place.

Re: Elevated rates of autism in transgender and gender-diverse individuals

#139

Post by coolreader18 »

eanzenberg wrote: post #76
XorNot wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People making claims like that generally no nothing of the procedure by which mental health issues are diagnosed - which is to say, mental health treatment is about addressing issues which are negatively affecting someone's quality of life, until they are not. This is the same reason you can't just go through the DSM V and ascribe mental health conditions to people on TV or in the media or whatnot - it doesn't work t…

Don’t they have much higher suicide rates? How happy can that be?

Post-transition transgender people have lower suicide rates and better mental health overall than those that are pre-transition[0].

[0]: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/24344788/

Re: Elevated rates of autism in transgender and gender-diverse individuals

#140

Post by empthought »

Pfhreak wrote: post #121
empthought wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Only on the basis of everyone until that person having said differently, up to and including someone else already having defined “man” as a male human.

Some people feel differently. If you were addressed as "ma'am" everywhere you went, you may not be that bothered. You might find it really frustrating. Even within the bounds of a gender (e.g. masculine), people will find themselves wanting to be seen as a particular point within that gender's spectrum. (E.g. you might want to be seen as a tough guy, or a sensitive man, etc.) It can be frustrating to feel like you ar…

If everyone called me ma’am all the time everywhere I went, I wouldn’t be bothered. That’s how I ended up getting sir’d in the first place.

I guess if they suddenly changed en masse, I’d wonder what’s up.

Post reply on HN