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Huawei 5G kit must be removed from UK by 2027

bbc.com

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Re: Huawei 5G kit must be removed from UK by 2027

#331

Post by lozf »

rich_sasha wrote: post #78
TheAdamAndChe wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your questions aren't about telecoms hardware, but about politics and the international flow of power. China is slated to take over the world economically. Their political model has the potential to spread around the world. These are attempts to limit China's capacity to grow as fast while inhibiting their capacity to knock out, intercept, or backdoor critical infrastructure.

Yeah, this I get and, well, sympathise in a way. There is no war, but an ongoing struggle for staying ahead economically, and if this is a part of it, at least there is a logic to it. I’m asking, is there really a security risk that Huawei might listen in on telecoms. Is traffic at the low level more vulnerable somehow? Is it the prevalence of unencrypted communications? Is it leaking of metadata that people are worr…

There's more to it than merely listening in or gathering metadata. In the future we'll all be used to widespread 5G, and increasingly dependent on it - it's already commonly touted as enabling self-driving cars, IoT etc. and even replacing WiFi.

People are concerned that Huawei / the Chinese could effectively shut down important chunks of infrastructure that would cause chaos in a city like London, and many other places, and furtermore that the implied threat of such a mishap, might be used as a form of coercion.

Re: Huawei 5G kit must be removed from UK by 2027

#332

Post by dang »

dicomdan wrote: post #286
dang wrote: post #249

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a stub comment to collect replies in one place. That way we can collapse it and prevent too much offtopicness at the top of thread.

Can you present evidence of moderation not having a one sided bias? Every time I see anything critical of the US / Europe / Canada and other liberal democracies it's sitting at the top, no matter how unsubstantiated. While every time there's anything that puts CCP in a bad light there's strong moderation because it's "not interesting" (even though this particular event is objectively very noteworthy in tech world and…

> Every time I see anything critical of the US / Europe / Canada and other liberal democracies it's sitting at the top, no matter how unsubstantiated

The key word here is "see". The problem is that we mostly see what we're primed to notice—which is basically whatever we most dislike—and we simply don't see (or don't weight as heavily) all the cases that don't feel that way. This creates a feeling of "every" or "always" (see https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23835843 in this thread), which is a true statement of what you've seen, but only because your seeing is extremely conditioned by your passions on the topic. (I don't mean you personally—we all seem to have this bias.) People with opposite passions see literally the opposite picture. Moreover, the degree to which the picture you see feels unfair and unbalanced is a function, not of the raw data stream, but of the intensity of your passion, regardless of which direction it points.

For evidence, if you search my comments you'll find examples where I've admonished users for flamewar in the opposite direction, as well as for flamewar on other topics, including nationalistic flamewar about other countries (India is probably the second most common case; Russia was up there for a few years and still flares up at times).

Re: Huawei 5G kit must be removed from UK by 2027

#334

Post by chillacy »

Ekaros wrote: post #272
flohofwoe wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the simplistic sort of thinking that capitalism and human rights are 'inseparable' from each other and can be 'exported' like Coca Cola or Blue Jeans is just a leftover from the Cold War. The reality is much more complicated unfortunately, together with the slowly growing realisation that the USA has quickly lost it's 'role model' status as the leader of the 'Free World' after the Cold War has ended. The West…

Considering the actions of these capitalist nations during Cold War it's pretty clear in retrospective that promoting human rights and democracy wasn't very high priority. Propping up dictators and terrorist don't seem very much in those lines.

America had to undergo a great amount of social change too before it came out the winner. With groups like the Black Panthers carrying around Mao's little red book, it seems to me that America had to (was forced to) become more inclusive to build allies and compete with the soviet union.

Re: Huawei 5G kit must be removed from UK by 2027

#335

Post by DenisM »

dang wrote: post #249
dang wrote: post #242

All: HN has been seeing a dismaying increase in nationalistic flamewar. This is not allowed here. I know it feels important when you're caught up in the intensity of such feelings, but it is not interesting , which is what HN is for. Worse, it has the effect on interesting discussion that tank battles have on a city park. If you don't have something thoughtful and substantive to say, please don't post until you do. D…

This is a stub comment to collect replies in one place. That way we can collapse it and prevent too much offtopicness at the top of thread.

Thank you for your work, dang.

I want to add that the flamewar type of discussion will attract a certain kind of visitors to the site, who will then steer the entire site in the flamewar direction attracting more of their own kind. For that reason I support nuking any thread that devolved into a flamewar and taking other measures to discourage them.

Re: Huawei 5G kit must be removed from UK by 2027

#336

Post by SheinhardtWigCo »

dang wrote: post #249
dang wrote: post #242

All: HN has been seeing a dismaying increase in nationalistic flamewar. This is not allowed here. I know it feels important when you're caught up in the intensity of such feelings, but it is not interesting , which is what HN is for. Worse, it has the effect on interesting discussion that tank battles have on a city park. If you don't have something thoughtful and substantive to say, please don't post until you do. D…

This is a stub comment to collect replies in one place. That way we can collapse it and prevent too much offtopicness at the top of thread.

I know that it’s difficult for you to discuss anti-astroturfing methods without disclosing information that could make circumvention easier, but can you give us an idea of how much effort is put in to detecting this kind of activity on HN? You seem very confident that this doesn’t happen here; is that because you’re doing something to prevent it? We are, after all, talking about an entity that is known to use these tactics on pseudonymous forums at extraordinary scale.[1] With that in mind, writing off these concerns as merely “nationalistic” comes across as dismissive.

I guess the real question is: could you really detect well-executed astroturfing here, even if you tried very hard? I worry that authentic discourse on high-traffic pseudonymous forums is basically impossible if someone is determined to sew an opinion and has significant resources at their disposal.

[1] https://gking.harvard.edu/files/gking/files/50c.pdf

Re: Huawei 5G kit must be removed from UK by 2027

#337

Post by chillacy »

ferest wrote: post #234
HideousKojima wrote: post #175

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, I'm saying that similar countries were able to lift their populations out of poverty without creating concentration camps for millions of political dissidents and religious minorities in the process. China's economic success isn't tied to its authoritarian regime, and it's actually pretty easy to argue that they would have lifted even more of their population out of poverty even faster if they hadn't had harebrai…

Lifting 100 millions people out of poverty is totally different from lifting 1 millions people out of poverty. Moving a car involves much more engineering than moving a carpet. If they haven't done great leap forward and cultural revolution it would be better, that is true. But by "abandoning all communist policies and began liberalizing markets", not all countries see economic success, ukraine, iraq and all recent "…

> And ironically enough, the fast developing era of taiwan, south korea, by today's standard, are not under any form of democracy.

This is I think an under-appreciated point... Taiwan and SK both made the most economic gains under military dictatorships. Social liberalization followed economic growth.

Something similar might have happened in Singapore, they're technically a democracy but have been governed by the PAP forever and don't really subscribe to freedom of press in the way the US does (but have their own ways of building accountability).

All very fascinating stuff. 10 years ago I would have said that China would follow the same path but in that case social liberalization still hasn't come yet. Certainly the GDP per capita has not yet caught up but the PPP was pretty close last I checked.

Re: Huawei 5G kit must be removed from UK by 2027

#338

Post by [deleted] »

shostack wrote: post #294
rich_sasha wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, this I get and, well, sympathise in a way. There is no war, but an ongoing struggle for staying ahead economically, and if this is a part of it, at least there is a logic to it. I’m asking, is there really a security risk that Huawei might listen in on telecoms. Is traffic at the low level more vulnerable somehow? Is it the prevalence of unencrypted communications? Is it leaking of metadata that people are worr…

Is there no war? Or has the nature of it changed due to MAD and such that it is just a cold war taking on a new form with the battles being fought over economies, politics, infrastructure, and culture as the opening salvos?

[deleted]

Re: Huawei 5G kit must be removed from UK by 2027

#339

Post by haecceity »

godelmachine wrote: post #333

Guys, just my lame thought but can’t differential privacy be legally enforced in every software on every digital device? https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Differential_privacy

I think the issue is that things that can not encrypted because of protocol requirements is enough to be dangerous

https://abcnews.go.com/blogs/headlines/2014/05/ex-nsa-chief-...

Re: Huawei 5G kit must be removed from UK by 2027

#340

Post by getmeoutofhere »

HideousKojima wrote: post #141
free_rms wrote: post #133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Different != Improper. They're not perfect, but over the last 30 years they lifted half a billion out of poverty and didn't wage war all over the world. Not everything needs to be wrapped in our style of propaganda, sometimes it can be wrapped in other brands instead.

Percentagewise, China hasn't done any better than South Korea or Taiwan at lifting their populace out of poverty. So I don't see how that comes anywhere close to excusing China's human rights abuses. And while SK and Taiwan only became democracies relatively recently, their human rights abuses even before then pale in comparison to what China is currently doing to Uighurs, Tibetans, and religious minorities in genera…

Surely this is a joke right? The white terror in Taiwan on a per capita basis was more brutal than anything in China. People were summarily executed, jailed, and robbed for even the slightest hints of anti-establishment sympathies.
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