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Andrew Ng: The suspension of H1B is bad for the US and bad for innovation

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Re: Andrew Ng: The suspension of H1B is bad for the US and bad for innovation

#331

Earlier quoted context omitted.

An actual shortage would, by definition, mean that, at least in the short term, no amount of price pressure would meet the need, because of a supply constraint that prevents response to price level changes. For jobs that need to be done on site and take significant time to acquire necessary skills, national borders can be a supply constraint for labor if there is an absence of local talent sufficiently qualified but…

> An actual shortage would, by definition, mean that, at least in the short term, no amount of price pressure would meet the need, because of a supply constraint that prevents response to price level changes. There are over a million Arabic speakers in the US, hundreds of thousands of whom are legally able to do the work. I strongly suspect that a number sufficient to handle the city of Detroit's translation needs co…

> There are over a million Arabic speakers in the US, hundreds of thousands of whom are legally able to do the work. I strongly suspect that a number sufficient to handle the city of Detroit's translation needs

That's an argument that there is not an actual shortage (which, I suspect, is correct), not that an actual shortage could be addressed by bidding higher with wages (which it could not, by definition.)

> What exactly are you arguing here?

Your incorrect statement about an actual shortage being addressable by bidding higher with wages.

> In what situation would a shortage truly require importing labor at low wages?

I wasn't arguing that would occur, but since you ask, a sudden supply constraint or demand surge (perhaps from a debilitating epidemic that spreads particularly well in conditions associated with a particular job) in an essential, common, but not completely unskilled job might require that to avoid massive economic disruption.

> As they are now, H1Bs suppress wages, especially immigrant wages.

I'm not sure I agree with the “especially” part, but, yes, I've said elsewhere in the thread that that is what H-1Bs do, and by design even if it's not the sales pitch.

Re: Andrew Ng: The suspension of H1B is bad for the US and bad for innovation

#332

Amidst this debate, I think it’s worth looking at the EU Blue Card scheme [1]. A few key differences versus the H1B (correct me if I’m wrong - my understanding of H1B features are basis discussions I have seen here): 1. Not tied to a specific employer. At least theoretically this is the case though your residence permit clearly specifies your employer. 2. Family-friendly options where your family can join you with th…

These differences all look like net-positives, but I've always wondered how well "integration courses" would be received in America. In conversations with Europeans, I've found that many people are pro-immigration "so long as they integrate," but I think this same statement might be perceived as (rightly?) kind of racist or culturally insensitive in America.

Relevant point but given that the US is much more diverse, an integration course might not be relevant but such an immersion course might help non-English/non-western candidates feel at home faster.

Re: Andrew Ng: The suspension of H1B is bad for the US and bad for innovation

#333
post #209

Earlier quoted context omitted.

if you live in a city for several years and settle in, form friendships, hobbies, and maybe relationships I suddenly find myself wondering if the path to reform for H1B could be short duration combine with some kind of fast-track naturalization. Does it even make sense for the transactional H1B to be so long term? If the H1B led to rapid naturalization, it would naturally curtail use of H1B over time, as the US popul…

Frankly, if you qualify for H1B, you really should qualify for a green card (resident alien status). Do we really want to bring skilled workers to the US, give them work experience and training that raises their skill level even higher, and then kick them out of the country? That seems like an unimaginably stupid idea. We should be seeking to retain highly skilled immigrants, not flushing them out of the country.

We should, but you'll be facing major pushback not just by US politicians, but in regards to Indian nationals, certain very large companies who's entire business model relies on H1-B being like it is because one of their intentions is exactly to have them come here, get any extra training, experience, etc and then farm them out to native corporations.

Re: Andrew Ng: The suspension of H1B is bad for the US and bad for innovation

#334

I came to the US from Canada under TN status, and later switched to an H1B so I could get a green card. I used to think it was a good thing, but I have since changed my mind. The Wikipedia article for the H1B outlines most of the problems, but I'll talk about my experience. When I moved from Canada to the US (for a software engineering role), I thought I getting a huge raise. It was about twice what I was earning in…

We have labor laws forbidding discrimination based on national origin, and yes, some corporations use H1-B and related visa systems as a loophole around those laws to discriminate based on national origin and more than likely the rest such as race, ethnicity, etc. In my time spent in tech-related fields I have certainly seen companies provide more favorable benefits and overall treatment to say, Ukrainian SysOps vs their counterparts from India or Bangladesh.

Re: Andrew Ng: The suspension of H1B is bad for the US and bad for innovation

#335
post #18
post #16

The largest H1-B visa sponsors are Cognizant, Tata, Wipro, Infosys, and Deloitte. None of those scream "innovation" to me. The system absolutely needs reform, and I think most people can agree with that. But that said, blanket bans on immigration by the white supremacists and nationalists currently running our government and deciding our immigration are probably not designed to help America or innovation either. The…

I wasn't aware that our government was currently being run by white supremacists. Do you have a source?

We should remind ourselves that white supremacy is the belief that white people are superior to people of other races, and that white people should thus be dominant over them.

In academics, white supremacy is a term to denote a system of structural racism which privileges white people over others, whether or not there's racial hatred.

You do not have to be white to be a white supremacist.

We can then critically evaluate what the current presidency and their network of advisers and influencers say and do. Some of the rhetoric and actions fall along lines other than white supremacy (e.g. xenophobia, nationalism, etc.), while others are less veiled.

Let's open our eyes, turn a mirror, and ask ourselves some hard questions: do I believe white people are superior? Do I benefit from a system that does and do I think anything should be done about it?

Re: Andrew Ng: The suspension of H1B is bad for the US and bad for innovation

#336

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And what is your evidence of that?

The bar is so low that Jewish (like Stephen Miller) and even black (e.g. Ben Carson, Candace Owens) people are frequently called white supremacists. So low that people saying "It's ok to be white" were called white supremacists. Does the term have any meaning now, or has it become simply a slur for anyone whose political beliefs differ, like "communist" or "terrorist" before it?

Agreed that there's risk in overuse which can lead to numbness for the real thing.

In some ways, I'd argue we should then be even more vigilant because white supremacist rhetoric / apologist sentiment and actions are having an easier time to hide behind the veils of fuzziness.

One comment though: you do not have to be white to be a white supremacist. White supremacy is the belief that white people are superior to people of other races, and should thus dominate them.

We see this pattern in other arenas too, e.g. gays and homophobia or women and gender bias.

Re: Andrew Ng: The suspension of H1B is bad for the US and bad for innovation

#337
post #269
post #209

Earlier quoted context omitted.

if you live in a city for several years and settle in, form friendships, hobbies, and maybe relationships I suddenly find myself wondering if the path to reform for H1B could be short duration combine with some kind of fast-track naturalization. Does it even make sense for the transactional H1B to be so long term? If the H1B led to rapid naturalization, it would naturally curtail use of H1B over time, as the US popul…

H1B, then green card, then citizenship. Different countries have different wait times.

You can go straight to Green Card via EB sponsorship but no employer wants to do that because it takes forever to process.

Re: Andrew Ng: The suspension of H1B is bad for the US and bad for innovation

#338
post #321

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've been told by a handful of colleagues in tech that lot of them come to the US on a student visa via a US Master's program and that gives them time to settle in and build their network and intern at US companies and transition to an H1B position rather than applying with just their bachelor's degree abroad. That's why you'll see so many Indian folks with Masters and they are the most well adjusted, intelligent, an…

There's a H-1B quota exemption for people holding master's degrees. But that is not the only reason they go for a master's degree. Many do not need it for immigration purposes yet they obtain one regardless.

It helps with EB-2 too.

Re: Andrew Ng: The suspension of H1B is bad for the US and bad for innovation

#339
post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unfortunately the reality is that there is absolutely no one who is interested in pushing a visa scheme like this. Employers are not interested in going through effort and paperwork for an employee who can jump ship for a better offer down the street once they are in the country. Other employees are not interested in increasing the supply of similar labor that will drive down their market value. The only ones who are…

American immigrant to Canada here. Canada has skilled worker permanent residence visas that, in many cases (and ignoring temporary pandemic-related delays), take half a year or less from start to finish. Mine was slower but still faster than a lot of immigrant experiences to the US, and I did it from outside Canada and without an employer involved at all. The skilled worker visas don't need family in country, though…

Like I said in another comment though - Canada's immigration system does not focus on family reunification like the United States.

63% of Green Cards are awarded based on family connection [0] not employment based sponsorship vs 26% in Canada [1].

The US is an outlier in this regard. Not many countries allow you to sponsor a sibling for Permanent Residency.

[0] https://www.boundless.com/blog/dhs-data-2018/

[1] https://www.canada.ca/en/immigration-refugees-citizenship/co...

Re: Andrew Ng: The suspension of H1B is bad for the US and bad for innovation

#340

I came to the US from Canada under TN status, and later switched to an H1B so I could get a green card. I used to think it was a good thing, but I have since changed my mind. The Wikipedia article for the H1B outlines most of the problems, but I'll talk about my experience. When I moved from Canada to the US (for a software engineering role), I thought I getting a huge raise. It was about twice what I was earning in…

You can get a Green Card on TN.
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