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UC Santa Cruz fires 54 grad students who were striking for higher pay

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Re: UC Santa Cruz fires 54 grad students who were striking for higher pay

#331

Post by kortilla »

csb6 wrote: post #64
csomar wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The way workers in this country are treated is god-awful, and I'm saddened by the people in this thread who are cheering the firing of these students. I'm not cheering their firing. I'm just explaining why their strike did not work out as they wished. > ask for compensation that reflects the value they bring to the organization That's not how it works in the real world. You get paid by market rate; which means if t…

> That's not how it works in the real world. You get paid by market rate; which means if there is someone else accepting a pay cut, you'll get fired and replaced. I agree, that's true. It's almost as if this is an unjust system that devolves into a race to the bottom and inevitable exploitation of workers. And that in the real world, anyone who tries to fight against this system ends up screwed by their employers. I'…

> I'm glad we could agree on the exploitation inherent to the labor market.

When you hire a plumber to do some work on your plumbing, do you do any price comparisons? If so, do you feel that’s “exploitation”?

Re: UC Santa Cruz fires 54 grad students who were striking for higher pay

#332

Post by kortilla »

saagarjha wrote: post #282
refurb wrote: post #232

Earlier quoted context omitted.

These graduate students are TAing labs. It's nowhere near a full time job.

You often end up doing 30-40 hours of work, but are only paid for 20.

Perhaps due to incompetence. Better to take longer and get it done rather than get fired I suppose. When I was a TA 20 hours of work was the most it took (and it was frequently less).

Re: UC Santa Cruz fires 54 grad students who were striking for higher pay

#333

Post by wutbrodo »

kova12 wrote: post #233
wutbrodo wrote: post #187

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I get that a lot of people on HN probably see the current low wages as a natural function of supply and demand in different academic disciplines. But heck, just looking at this from the point of view of the university, which is allocating resources to fight this, the calculus is odd. Note that I'm not making any _moral or normative claims_ about not striking vs striking vs wildcat striking, nor about the interplay…

Which just underlies the problem with unions: not only they are compulsory institutions that force you into their ranks whether you want it or not, but even those who join them don't get a fair representation and have to strike on their own.

> even those who join them don't get a fair representation and have to strike on their own.

Again without implying anything normative, what makes you claim that the students' representation by the union isn't "fair"? Simply because they want more than stipulated by the contract the union was able to negotiate? Is my (non-union) salary "unfair" because I'd much rather get paid 3x as much (or 30x, for that matter)?

Re: UC Santa Cruz fires 54 grad students who were striking for higher pay

#334

Post by kortilla »

bsder wrote: post #326
ip26 wrote: post #273

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There seems to be a history of strikes at UCSC alienating the rank and file. Strikes are supposed to squeeze the employer, e.g. because their factory isn't producing and the employer is losing face & sales to competitors. All the strikes at UCSC seem to wind up squeezing the student body, which 1) doesn't call the shots and 2) is paying fixed costs. Last one I remember was a transit strike where the strikers closed a…

Congratulations, you have both fallen into the position that the University wants you to. UCSC can easily marshal the resources to get your grades, get you graduated, etc. The fact that UCSC chooses not to in order to divide you from the strikers is intentional . People don't go on strike because it's fun or popular. And strikes are not meant to be convenient.

> UCSC can easily marshal the resources to get your grades

Unless UCSC is hiring water boarding specialists, no they can’t. The TA refused to give them up.

Re: UC Santa Cruz fires 54 grad students who were striking for higher pay

#335

Post by saagarjha »

kortilla wrote: post #332
saagarjha wrote: post #282

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You often end up doing 30-40 hours of work, but are only paid for 20.

Perhaps due to incompetence. Better to take longer and get it done rather than get fired I suppose. When I was a TA 20 hours of work was the most it took (and it was frequently less).

It's good to see that your graduate school experience worked for you, but I would suggest you talk to the TAs striking before labelling them as lazy and unfit.

Re: UC Santa Cruz fires 54 grad students who were striking for higher pay

#336

Post by wahern »

kova12 wrote: post #233
wutbrodo wrote: post #187

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I get that a lot of people on HN probably see the current low wages as a natural function of supply and demand in different academic disciplines. But heck, just looking at this from the point of view of the university, which is allocating resources to fight this, the calculus is odd. Note that I'm not making any _moral or normative claims_ about not striking vs striking vs wildcat striking, nor about the interplay…

Which just underlies the problem with unions: not only they are compulsory institutions that force you into their ranks whether you want it or not, but even those who join them don't get a fair representation and have to strike on their own.

Compulsory union membership has been illegal since the 1947 Taft-Hartey Act. Compulsory legal representation fees for public sector unions have been illegal since Janus v. AFSCME (2018).

Just like in a democracy, not everybody's interests can be fully satisfied in a union. So what? That doesn't necessarily mean we'd all be better off with autocracy or without any government whatsoever, not even the people getting the short end of the stick.

The fundamental problem in Santa Cruz, like many other universities in the state, is the cost of housing. UC Santa Cruz didn't build enough housing. Part of the problem is that most of UCSC's land is wildlife refuge, and part of the problem (like everywhere else in California) is the political and regulatory difficulty of building new housing. The cost of housing has been increasing far faster than UCSC's budget.

Re: UC Santa Cruz fires 54 grad students who were striking for higher pay

#337

Post by jdm2212 »

kortilla wrote: post #324
jdm2212 wrote: post #242

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Don't make the perfect the enemy of the good. A union-negotiated contract that's better than the one you'd get without the union is, well, better. It might not be "fair" or flawless, but it's still better.

Unless it’s worse. The assumption that forming a union and entering into effectively hostile negotiations with the company will result in a better compensation is unfounded.

It varies by country and even in the US it varies by industry. A lot of European countries have a less adversarial relationship between organized labor and management and workers benefit greatly. Public sector unions in the US, and the teamsters, and Culinary in Las Vegas, etc. don't seem to leave their workers worse off either.

Re: UC Santa Cruz fires 54 grad students who were striking for higher pay

#338

Post by ball_of_lint »

nostrebored wrote: post #71
acdha wrote: post #12

I feel like these stories should mention the compensation for the people attacking graduate students for demanding a living wage. Someone making well into 6 figures really doesn’t have a good basis for summarily dismissing that need: https://transparentcalifornia.com/salaries/2018/university-o...

Why should they expect a living wage for sub-demand fields of research? Why do my choices to achieve financial stability override my experience prior to that? When you're from a poor family the decisions that these striking students are making are befuddling.

Why should people need to work multiple jobs just to survive? Why should an employer be allowed to pay pay some workers six figures and others so little they must choose between a roof and a meal?

You can choose what to believe. I choose to believe that the world is a better place when people are paid a living wage for their jobs.

Re: UC Santa Cruz fires 54 grad students who were striking for higher pay

#339

Post by saagarjha »

kortilla wrote: post #334
bsder wrote: post #326

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Congratulations, you have both fallen into the position that the University wants you to. UCSC can easily marshal the resources to get your grades, get you graduated, etc. The fact that UCSC chooses not to in order to divide you from the strikers is intentional . People don't go on strike because it's fun or popular. And strikes are not meant to be convenient.

> UCSC can easily marshal the resources to get your grades Unless UCSC is hiring water boarding specialists, no they can’t. The TA refused to give them up.

What would the college have done if the TA had decided to quit?

Re: UC Santa Cruz fires 54 grad students who were striking for higher pay

#340

Post by Symbiote »

SamReidHughes wrote: post #94
pergadad wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In the Netherlands every PhD will be paid fairly decently. That's how it should be. Nor excuse for rich universities like those in UK & US to exploit those dreaming of s research career.

Just with some fast googling, I think they're paid in about the same range as US PhD's. Or am I mistaken?

Without any searching, the cost of living is probably much higher in California.
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