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Bitcoin's Use in Commerce Keeps Falling

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Re: Bitcoin's Use in Commerce Keeps Falling

#331

Post by kristjansson »

amatic wrote: post #139
kristjansson wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Exactly: own some. Not spend some, hence the problem with using it as a currency.

I'm not sure that is a real problem. You own some, then when you want to spend, you spend. The fact that it is deflationary means you might postpone your purchase, but ultimately, you will need to eat/travel/etc more than you need to "own" currency. Or are there other problems?

The issue is that, in a smoothly deflating currency, all but the most essential consumption will be postponed indefinitely, as will investment of that currency in anything that expects to return less than the rate of deflation. This is bad for an economy denominated entirely in that currency, as the deduction in economic activity can increase the rate of deflation, which reduces economic activity further, and so on.

Obviously bitcoin is not the primary currency for any economy, so the feedback effect isn't a concern, but the deflationary pressure is (per TFA) reducing actual economic activity denominated in bitcoin.

Re: Bitcoin's Use in Commerce Keeps Falling

#332

Post by dj43nq »

keymone wrote: post #274
rrdharan wrote: post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Last week I needed to make a highly time-sensitive transfer of ~20k that had to clear the same day. Chase charged me a flat fee of $25 for the wire (and Ally Bank would have been happy to do it for $20). Chase temporarily froze my account since the payment was so large it was immediately flagged, but I spoke to someone on the phone within a few minutes, verified it was all legitimate, and the transfer was then proces…

is this sarcasm? > I fail to see how Bitcoin could have helped any of this. how about: - not having to pay $25 (btc fee of $0.03 is confirming within an hour, $0.10 is almost guaranted to confirm in 10m) - "frozen account" is not even a thing - not having to speak to anyone on the phone you must be joking.

With the price fluctuations, maybe that 20k arrives as 19k. Don’t leave it in bitcoin for too long either. Might turn into 15k.

Re: Bitcoin's Use in Commerce Keeps Falling

#333

Post by andrewmcwatters »

keymone wrote: post #320
andrewmcwatters wrote: post #318

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> it only syncs block headers I think what the parent comment is trying to say is: who cares about this? Not even many of us technical people care. It's like saying, "Just get the mobile app, it just synchroaligns the ledger manifest distributable intra-block metadata! Duh! Simple!" It's not accessible to people, and not even engineers who aren't familiar with the tech. I don't need to understand the minting process…

this is just weird.. i was addressing GP's concern about performance of syncing. of course i wouldn't bother explaining how bitcoin works and what are the modes of operation and performance differences between them to a lay person. they don't care. they care that it's just an app. so what exactly did you want to say?

It's missing the forest for the trees.

Re: Bitcoin's Use in Commerce Keeps Falling

#334

Post by klodolph »

jstanley wrote: post #183
klodolph wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> That's not how it works. Obivously, the meaning of the original sentence is that miners will turn off the mining equipment when they decide that it's more profitable to leave it off than leave it on. > …you can either sell it for $50 and only be down $50 on your electricity, or you can not sell it at all and be down $100 on your electricity. This is a false dilemma, the question is not just whether you sell the coi…

Are you claiming that the cost of electricity sets a lower bound on what the price of 1 BTC can possibly go to? If not, you haven't really disagreed with what I said.

You said,

> …you can either sell it for $50 and only be down $50 on your electricity, or you can not sell it at all and be down $100 on your electricity.

This is what I disagree with.

Re: Bitcoin's Use in Commerce Keeps Falling

#335

Post by lawn »

tyree731 wrote: post #310
lawn wrote: post #297

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Fees are only higher in Bitcoin which the developers have crippled. Look at Bitcoin Cash or other cryptocurrencies for much lower fees. Here are some reasons why cryptocurrencies is a superior payment system, even for the consumer: * The fees are lower (VISA and PayPal fees are priced into the cost, and they are much higher) * It's anonymous (see Monero for example) * You can send money easily to anywhere in the worl…

Some counterpoints: * You don't need a bank's permission. There are many unbanked people in the world. Do we imagine those unbanked people being likely to have bitcoin wallets? * Eliminates credit charge back fraud, which is a very big problem That a problem, for sure, but in exchange consumers have no recourse if they legitimately need to chargeback a vendor. This is an anti-consumer feature of bitcoin. * Nobody can…

> Do we imagine those unbanked people being likely to have bitcoin wallets?

Yes, mobile phones far outnumber bank accounts in much of the developing world.

Also unbanked people exist in the developed countries. Ex convicts, immigrants and homeless for example.

> That a problem, for sure, but in exchange consumers have no recourse if they legitimately need to chargeback a vendor. This is an anti-consumer feature of bitcoin.

Yes it's one of the drawbacks.

You could argue that it's easier to have recourse against a business than against an individual.

> you'll need an exchange to your currency of choice, at which point governments have all the ability in the world to effectively freeze your assets.

You're imagining a world-wide all powerful and all knowing government which can freeze your funds. There are exchanges all over the world and you can even sell your coins for physical cash. Also you need to be able to trace all coins and then try to freeze them, which isn't practical if you use Monero or a good mixing service.

That's assuming you actually sell your coins for fiat instead of buying things or services instead. Or if you just hold the coins.

This is very different from holding the actual wallet and being able to freeze it at any time.

> yet the number of websites that are offering bitcoin payments is shrinking

Do you have any source that the number of porn websites are accepting cryptocurrencies less?

Cause that doesn't seem to be the case at all. Pornhub for example has partnered with other cryptocurrencies (bad move IMO but still). Playboy was working on it but apparently got screwed by their contractor. There are other smaller sites that have begun accepting cryptocurrencies recently.

This is also not a technical argument against cryptocurrencies. With time adoption will increase since the technology is here.

Re: Bitcoin's Use in Commerce Keeps Falling

#336

Post by dmichulke »

pg_bot wrote: post #156
dmichulke wrote: post #142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your argument is also applicable to gold yet it doesn't hold there

My argument holds for gold as well. Do some research on ROI for gold against the stock market for the past 80 years. You will find that it has a pitiful return when compared to owning stocks. Gold is a non productive asset, just because people buy it when there is a market panic doesn't make it a wise decision (people do dumb things during market panics). If you hoard gold you also run the risk of someone finding a l…

> There is a reason why an investor that holds a security until it is worthless is called a "bag holder". It makes no sense to "invest" in any currency when you can own productive assets instead.

The price of gold is nonzero for a good amount of years (2k+), so a lot of people buy/hold it and in that sense your theory is incorrect.

Also productivity is not everything, sometimes "keeping what you have" is much more important.

Finally, there are situations where you cannot

- just emigrate to a country that respects your property rights (see migrant crisis)

- buy US or other stocks

> Do some research on ROI for gold against the stock market for the past 80 years. You will find that it has a pitiful return when compared to owning stocks

Of course, do your research on X and you will find a time when X > stocks > Y. Hell, do it on bitcoin, it outperforms stocks during the last 10 years :-P

> At the end of the day if you have no productive use for the asset, why hold it?

Cheap/anonymous remittance and storing value without trusting a 3rd party are valuable, even if it's not productive.

If you're really convinced about what you say, short gold and bitcoin. You'll get rich if you're correct and wiser if you're not.

Re: Bitcoin's Use in Commerce Keeps Falling

#337

Post by dmichulke »

beefield wrote: post #210
dmichulke wrote: post #142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your argument is also applicable to gold yet it doesn't hold there

Just wait for a day when there is a central banker that simultaneously has half a brain cell and tiniest set of balls. That day you see price of gold crashing in a way that has never seen before. Really, there is no more reason for a modern central bank to hold gold reserves than there is reason to hold ponzicoin reserves.

> Just wait for a day when there is a central banker that simultaneously has half a brain cell and tiniest set of balls.

You do realize that you just implicitly said that you're basically much smarter and more courageous than every central banker in the world. I assume there are more than 10000, so that's not exactly humble.

I'd bet against you but if you're short BTC or gold, we're already betting against each other anyway.

Re: Bitcoin's Use in Commerce Keeps Falling

#338

Post by jobserunder »

davidgerard wrote: post #290
jobserunder wrote: post #268

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Selfish mining with less than 50% does not exist. False Also.... see how they confiscated gold in the USA. You cannot confiscate bitcoin, anymore than you can confiscate "internet" Both are networking protocols

> Selfish mining with less than 50% does not exist. False Incorrect, and this has been well known for nearly five years: http://hackingdistributed.com/2013/11/04/bitcoin-is-broken/

Yes, Emin has been pushing that narrative for a while.

But we have not seen an instance of this yet

Re: Bitcoin's Use in Commerce Keeps Falling

#339

Post by dragontamer »

coryfklein wrote: post #329
dragontamer wrote: post #293

Earlier quoted context omitted.

American Eagle Gold coins are US-Government issued, serial-number stamped official Gold coins of the US Government. Created by the US Mint, you have strong assurances that you are recieving in fact, 91.67% gold / 22 karat (an alloy, because pure gold is too soft for the typical consumer). If you do want 99.99% Gold / 24 karat, the US Mint also makes the Buffalo coin. But that's usually harder to store. American Eagle…

1 oz gold spot is $1210 per ounce [1] 1 oz American Eagle coin direct from the mint? $1,490 [2] That's a 23% "transaction fee". You'll get much much lower buying gold (or bitcoin) from somebody else. [1] http://www.kitco.com/charts/livegold.html [2] https://catalog.usmint.gov/american-eagle-2018-one-ounce-gol...

You certainly don't buy gold coins directly from the mint.

You buy them at only a bit higher than spot price from 3rd party distributors. For example: https://www.apmex.com/product/1/1-oz-gold-american-eagle-bu-...

American Eagle coins have a slight premium, due to their guarentee by the USA Mint itself. If you don't care about serial numbers and want to just have bullion, you can buy other gold coins. But American Eagles are great because they are enforced by the powers of the US Government itself. So you get a bit of security (and therefore, the price of the coin is slightly higher compared to gold).

But not much higher. Really, it isn't. Checkout 3rd party sites like apmex or your local gold shop if you don't believe me.

Re: Bitcoin's Use in Commerce Keeps Falling

#340

Post by smsm42 »

keymone wrote: post #277
smsm42 wrote: post #238

I am not surprised. I am a programmer with decades of experience under my belt, and I have no idea how to install bitcoin in a way that would allow me convenient use of it. No, I can install the apps, and I can spend a month or two waiting until it downloads the whole 40+G of current blockchain, or I can trust some site that says it'd fix it for me, or I can open an account on any of the exchanges and pray to cryptog…

exaggerating a bit? bitcoin syncs within couple hours unless you run it on the computer you'd gain your decades of experience on :) every mobile bitcoin app is a lightweight client - it only syncs block headers, much faster but not great for large sums of money. so for a person that can't tell "browser" from "internet" there's no difference between introducing them to paypal or to bitcoin - it's just an app on your p…

With paypal, if someone gives you trouble, you can call support and reverse the payment. And they have protection policies. With bitcoin, if anything happens, you're the idiot who bought into the hype and now getting what was coming you you. For consumer, there's a huge difference - that's why "ZERO FRAUD LIABILITY" is written on every credit card conditions in big friendly letters. Are there any zero fraud liability bitcoin instruments? Are they even possible?
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