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Bitcoin's Use in Commerce Keeps Falling

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Re: Bitcoin's Use in Commerce Keeps Falling

#261

Post by JustMatthew »

jonny_eh wrote: post #170
Meekro wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If Bitcoin is a failure, I wish some of my projects would fail like that.

I hope my projects never hurt the environment as much as Bitcoin has.

The energy consumed from bitcoin PoW is used as a frequent rebuttal against the legitimacy of bitcoin, and it is an incontrovertible fact that the energy demands of bitcoin are non-trivial.

According to annualized energy forecasts extrapolated out from bitcoin PoW energy demands back in December 2017 (i.e. at the height of the recent crypto bubble frenzy) BTC miners are expected to use 8.27 terawatt-hours this year. That's more energy than 116 countries including the Democratic Republic of Congo.

On the other hand, the amount of energy bitcoin is forecast to consume in a year would only last the U.S. 19 hours. Additional the production of the global cash and coin supply will consume an estimated 11 terawatt-hours this year while gold mining will burn the equivalent of 132 terawatt-hours over the same period - and that doesn't include armored trucks, bank bank vaults, security systems etc...

I'm not saying it's worth it to burn all that energy to keep bitcoin (arguably) decentralized. I just want to provide some (now probably outdated) perspective to temper arguments, and stimulate others (on both sides) to advance their arguments beyond headline quotes.

Sources

Pessimistic take: http://www.businessinsider.com/bitcoin-is-ruining-the-planet...

Optimistic takes: https://www.bloomberg.com/view/articles/2017-12-07/bitcoin-i... & https://blog.bitcoin.org.hk/bitcoin-mining-and-energy-consum...

Re: Bitcoin's Use in Commerce Keeps Falling

#262

Post by safgasCVS »

msie wrote: post #248
safgasCVS wrote: post #141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yup

Well, the issue is complex and not as clear cut as Trump or Fox News would say. For example, land seized during apartheid has to be returned. Of course this would mean some white farmers would have to give back some of their land.

That's not what's being tabled up for discussion - land forcefully taken during apartheid already has an existing process and that land is mostly urban.

What's being discussed is forcible taking of white owned land 'just because' - there is no subtle point. That is the entire discussion.

Re: Bitcoin's Use in Commerce Keeps Falling

#263

Post by surfacedetail »

DINKDINK wrote: post #153
bobthepanda wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I mean, what advantage does it have over gold? Advantages of gold vs. Bitcoin: - gold is pretty easy to find, not that hard to buy for the average consumer; BTC is anything but - gold is physical in form and securing it is not hard; BTC is not physical, exchanges get hacked with losses to accounts, in the event of a natural disaster or some event where power generation and internet is lost you lose access to BTC. (So…

>where power generation and internet is lost you lose access to BTC You don't need the internet nor the power grid to use bitcoin. To use bitcoin via the Lightning Network minimally, you need a CPU and a method to transmit data. CPU: phone Transmit Data: Bluetooth, QR code/camera. Electricity for your phone: Cheap emergency solar panel

The Lightning Network? Really?

Re: Bitcoin's Use in Commerce Keeps Falling

#265

Post by topranks »

sudomake wrote: post #249
forgotmypw wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think of Bit<oin as the MS-DOS of e1e<troni< <urren<ies.

MS-DOS was successful. Perhaps CPM is a better choice?

Well CPM wasn’t a failure because MS-DOS was better technically. It was more down to other factors like IBM selling it for a much lower price than CPM for the IBM-PC.

So to the original comment I think the poster means it’s like MS-DOS, but Windows or some such will come next and bring it to the mainstream.

Re: Bitcoin's Use in Commerce Keeps Falling

#266

Post by topranks »

surfacedetail wrote: post #263
DINKDINK wrote: post #153

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>where power generation and internet is lost you lose access to BTC You don't need the internet nor the power grid to use bitcoin. To use bitcoin via the Lightning Network minimally, you need a CPU and a method to transmit data. CPU: phone Transmit Data: Bluetooth, QR code/camera. Electricity for your phone: Cheap emergency solar panel

The Lightning Network? Really?

It’ll save us all - and work perfectly without the internet too!

Re: Bitcoin's Use in Commerce Keeps Falling

#267

Post by forgotmypw »

sudomake wrote: post #249
forgotmypw wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think of Bit<oin as the MS-DOS of e1e<troni< <urren<ies.

MS-DOS was successful. Perhaps CPM is a better choice?

Bit<oin is a1so su<<essfu1. And a few years 1ater, we're 1eft wondering how we managed with 8.3 fi1enames.

Re: Bitcoin's Use in Commerce Keeps Falling

#268

Post by jobserunder »

mr_theopolis wrote: post #247

The problem with bitcoin as a currency or a store of value is simpler than all these comments. It is not secure. If I own gold, I own the gold, nobody can take it from me without physical access to it. If I own bitcoin, I own a transaction on a ledger. I don't own that ledger. The majority miners control the ledger. A miner who has 50% of hashing power (actually less, when selfish mining) completely owns and controls…

Selfish mining with less than 50% does not exist. False

Also.... see how they confiscated gold in the USA.

You cannot confiscate bitcoin, anymore than you can confiscate "internet"

Both are networking protocols

Re: Bitcoin's Use in Commerce Keeps Falling

#270

Post by keymone »

WJW wrote: post #199
conanbatt wrote: post #151

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I disagree with several of your statements. First, bitcoin has a monetary policy, and the key is that it cant be changed, which is very appealing: more appealing that storing gold vs fiat, since gold has a less predictable monetary policy. Gold had been chosen as currency for most of history, across cultures and languages. In countries where the currency breaks down, things like chocolate, potatoes or corn get into c…

> and the key is that it cant be changed, which is very appealing This is only very appealing if: - It is never necessary to change monetary policy. - The same monetary policy is appropriate for all nations. - The monetary policy that was chosen by the bitcoin dev team is exactly the right one.

> The same monetary policy is appropriate for all nations

you're conflating. the concept of nation has nothing to do with the concept of money.

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