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How Automakers Invented the Crime of “Jaywalking”

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Re: How Automakers Invented the Crime of “Jaywalking”

#331
For anyone that's interested in the subject, Hunter Oatman-Stanford wrote a rather more comprehensive article[1] with a much snappier title on the topic roughly four years ago, and Eben Weiss (aka Bike Snob NYC) responded with one of his charmingly vitriolic hot-takes[2] shortly thereafter.

[1] https://www.collectorsweekly.com/articles/murder-machines/

[2] https://bikesnobnyc.blogspot.com/2014/03/bsnyc-no-friday-fun...

Re: How Automakers Invented the Crime of “Jaywalking”

#332
post #305

Can HN please stop it with this "not owning a car is virtuous" shtick? I went most of my younger life not having a car, only learning to drive at age 28. I lived in a new england suburb close enough to go to my work and shopping services at a ten minute walk at the time, and it still was horrid. People here don't get how limited your life is without a car. You are limited to a ten-fifteen mile radius for everything,…

I'm in my 30s / no license / live in nyc my whole life

I would be surprised to learn someone over the age of 16 doesn't have their license in a new england suburb. In my limited experience public transit is terrible in smaller US cities.

The truth is in NYC I don't even think about owning a car. In fact the opposite is true, sometimes I think to myself "wow, I'm so glad I can live my life and don't have to worry about all that car related stuff."

I'm not saying that's true anywhere else. I'm not telling you to feel guilty about owning a car. All I'm saying is that in NYC in 2018, no, life really isn't limited without a car. This isn't virtue signaling this is a calculated part of life for many people living in major cities. Public transit isn't perfect but the cost/benefit of car ownership overhead just isn't worth it in some places.

Re: How Automakers Invented the Crime of “Jaywalking”

#333
post #308

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I cannot imagine mandatory tracking devices, anonymous or not, ever being mandatory in the United States. That would never fly.

Everybody misinterpreted what I've intended. SHORT RANGE BEACONS. Enough to be "seen" by car AI through obstacles. Here's the imaginary conversation between car and beacon: - "Is someone behind that parked van?" - "Yes" - "Who?" - "Mind your own business, just slow down in case I decide to jump to the road, ok?"

If the beacons don't identify their carrier, you could very easily troll AI cars by leaving unmanned beacons lying around.

Re: How Automakers Invented the Crime of “Jaywalking”

#334
post #305

Can HN please stop it with this "not owning a car is virtuous" shtick? I went most of my younger life not having a car, only learning to drive at age 28. I lived in a new england suburb close enough to go to my work and shopping services at a ten minute walk at the time, and it still was horrid. People here don't get how limited your life is without a car. You are limited to a ten-fifteen mile radius for everything,…

> A life without personal cars would be a rather limited and even serfish one.

This is highly dependent on your location and life circumstances. I live in Eastern Europe, have resources to easily buy a couple of cars, yet choose not to. I prefer to walk or cycle.

> People talk about bicycles, but 0 degree or snowy weather makes that horrid

In Amsterdam, people cycle in -10°C when there's 10cm of snow on the ground (I did so myself). While a little unpleasant, apart from walking it was the only viable means of transport: the metro and trains were cancelled because of snow, and cars and buses were mostly stuck in traffic jams because there were so many crashes everywhere. (Someone tell the Dutch about winter tires!)

Re: How Automakers Invented the Crime of “Jaywalking”

#335

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We could end up with roads dedicated to cars being separated from roads dedicated to pedestrians or cyclists. You could imagine if a city was designed from scratch the vehicles could move around almost in tunnel-like back-alleys, with periodic embarkation points into pedestrianized open plazas and boulevards. If Musk's reduction in cost of tunnelling is more than just a pipe-dream, then you might be able to retrofit…

> vehicles could move around almost in tunnel-like back-alleys, with periodic embarkation points into pedestrianized open plazas and boulevards. Sounds an awful lot like a subway or lite rail system to me. I've never understood the fascination with self-driving cars and what they imply for PT--how is such a system superior to a well designed and maintained train system?

It's not. It's the worst of both worlds.

Re: How Automakers Invented the Crime of “Jaywalking”

#336

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a frequent pedestrian who also pays road taxes, I am also trying to get somewhere, and I don't appreciate all the times I've had to dodge cars while using a crosswalk. The stakes for me are much higher.

Apart from the dodging, it's having to stand there waiting, while they womble past in their horseless carriage ... getting in my way.

And you are getting in their way.

There is a person in that car, so as far as who is more important it's equal both ways.

Sometimes the person walking waits, sometimes the person in the car waits.

Re: How Automakers Invented the Crime of “Jaywalking”

#337

Now is an opportunity, perhaps first in ~100 years, perhaps last, to recover the streets for unaugmented humans: slow down cars in urban areas, increase qualifications for humans to drive, eventually ban human drivers entirely, leaving only automated vehicles with enough sensors and going slowly enough to reduce auto-related deaths for pedestrians and passengers alike to zero.

Part of that makes sense - only automated vehicles will be a great boon. Going slower in already-congested urban areas is a non-starter; it doesn't solve the problem and makes it worse. Automation could tremendously improve the accident rate all by itself anyway.

And until ALL the human drivers are gone, automated ones are going to have to drive 'on eggshells' in case an uninstrumented car happens by. IF it were known for a fact that all cars were instrumented (so the software knew where ALL of them were) then we could even do away with stop lights etc - the cars could regulate intersections 'in the cloud'. And so on.

Which leaves the interesting problem - what do we do to cross the chasm - from all human drivers to all automated drivers? There are few good solutions in the middle.

Re: How Automakers Invented the Crime of “Jaywalking”

#338

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Counter point. Late 30s here, family, no car, no license. I use cabs all the time, it's great. I have a fine social life and can drink safely. I can rent houses and move about for work, then change countries without offloading assets at fire-sale prices. I choose not to live in an unpleasant climate, so snow is a non-issue for me. Have you considered the option that maybe you just don't get it? Cars are responsible f…

I agree that not owning a car would be better than owning. But simply saying "you should move to a better place" is not only a privileged statement but also a callous one. You assume people are not in a place for important reasons like staying close to family, working for a company they like, simply loving where they live or not being able to afford living to an urban environment. These are all valid and if not ownin…

I personally choose not to live in a freezing place, and most people can do that. Even without crossing a border intra-EU/CN/US/AU moves achieve this goal.

See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_carbon_di... and order by 'emission per capita'.

Re: How Automakers Invented the Crime of “Jaywalking”

#339
post #102

Point taken. However, when new tech comes along, new laws follow in their wake. When people moved from farm to city and suddenly we had massive amounts of worker abuse, labor laws got introduced. Barnstorming aviation gave way to regulated aviation. It's not exactly the same, but it's similar in that it's a reaction to change in the operating environment. I mean, before cars, streets tended to be narrow and generally…

> I mean, before cars, streets tended to be narrow and generally ad hoc. It's also worthwhile to consider all that cars have added to our society. People stayed in the streets because that's as far as they could go. Vendors came to the streets because that's where their customers could get to. Travel was limited, the movement of goods was basically nonexistent compared to today and "moving for a job" was not even a p…

The role of technology in society is a perpetual balancing act negotiated by the actions of the people. Perhaps it isn't so much "navel gazing through the past" as recognizing that the balance has, for some, shifted too far in the direction of sacrifice.

Luckily, there are other societies that have managed to achieve most of the benefits of cars with fewer of the costs. We can learn from them as we try to find a balance that is acceptable to a broader population.

Re: How Automakers Invented the Crime of “Jaywalking”

#340
post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's already true in many places, in a lot of European cities you see a sign like this when entering: https://lsmlomza.pl/pliki/2014/03/lsm-znak1.jpg And it basically means that pedestrians have an absolute priority before cars, they can walk on the street as much as they like and you as a driver have to exhibit some extreme attention because if anything happens, it's 99% certain you will be found at fault.

Is that sign real? It is awful design. The meaning is complete obscure to me.

It is on drivers tests, though, so that helps. The general idea (there are kids playing and people walking) seems to get across.

Incidentally it drove me crazy when I saw big red X's in circles upon moving to a place with European signage. It always felt wrong to proceed, when in fact the sign means don't stop. https://travel.stackexchange.com/questions/50403/what-does-t...

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