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Student Loan Debt Is Now as Big as the U.S. Junk Bond Market

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Re: Student Loan Debt Is Now as Big as the U.S. Junk Bond Market

#331

Post by Domenic_S »

dmschulman wrote: post #324
cloakandswagger wrote: post #142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The "March for Science" that happened earlier this year had estimated attendance of 1.07 million. Now go to Google Images and search for "March for Science". Nearly every sign I see is either political in nature, elevating science to a level of religion/infallibility, or casting science as a fashion/meme ("Scientific is the new chic", "Science isn't wrong", "In science we trust").

Similar to Twitter, it's hard to nuance a complex thought on a garish protest sign. With the example of a sign reading "Sciences isn't wrong", that's not literally a statement of science's infallibility, it's just something some guy wrote on a sign. If you had a conversation with the individual I'm sure they would espouse to you what they meant with their sign. It feels like an act of willful ignorance to interpret t…

That's part of the problem now though, there's no room for nuance. You almost HAVE to take an extreme position in order to be heard.

For instance, the GP mentioned anti-vaxxers. There are many different kinds of "alternative" stances on vaccinations, and only one (very) extreme position is "vaccines cause autism". But if you mention anything about vaccines that isn't 100% of vaccines are amazing 100% of the time you are considered an "anti-vaxxer", lumped in with the vaccines-cause-autism crazies.

Consider: I haven't made a judgement on vaccines in this comment, yet I guarantee you have a feeling/judgement about what you think I believe. Like I said, no room for nuance.

Re: Student Loan Debt Is Now as Big as the U.S. Junk Bond Market

#332

Post by GFischer »

jackweirdy wrote: post #68
jedberg wrote: post #22

There is definitely an education bubble. It's way too easy to get money for college. You hear a lot of stories about the increasing costs of college and crushing debt on graduation, but you don't hear a lot of stories of "I wanted to go to college but couldn't get a loan". Almost everyone gets approved, regardless of their future ability to pay it back. We need a fundamental shift in the way college is paid for. Some…

> Another solution is to let you go to school for free and then pay a percent of all your future earnings back to your college, or at least into a pool that pays for the next generation's college. We could call it income tax :)

We have that in Uruguay, and it's no fun (I agree that getting into debt sucks as well).

State/national University here used to be 100% free, but now every graduate has to pay, starting 5 years after graduation, until they turn 65, if they make over U$ 1000 - irrespective of whether their employment has anything to do with their career.

So, a 25 year old graduate gets to pay for the next 35 years. Unlike student debt, you never pay it back, and the cost is also adjusted upwards every year - ostensibly according to inflation, but might be higher.

Students that elected to pay their tuition in a private university don't have to pay.

In a way it's more fair because impoverished people have a chance to do a degree, and they even get a scholarship that includes money for living expenses and textbooks, but OTOH most of the graduates don't earn much above U$ 1000 and they have to pay 5 to 8% of their salary for all their working lives - I'm not sure if that's a good deal.

Re: Student Loan Debt Is Now as Big as the U.S. Junk Bond Market

#333

Post by harrumph »

tzahola wrote: post #253
toomuchtodo wrote: post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As if the world was a free market, and compensation was tied to value.

>compensation was tied to value. It is the definition of value. Value is the compensation others are willing to give you in exchange for your goods/services.

>Value is the compensation others are willing to give you in exchange for your goods/services.

Value includes far more than that. It includes all kinds of tangibles and intangibles, including compensation in exchange for absolutely nothing, such as in the case of nonworking shareholders being paid dividends, such dividends arising from the expropriation by owners of surplus value created by workers.

Re: Student Loan Debt Is Now as Big as the U.S. Junk Bond Market

#334

Post by georgeecollins »

murph-almighty wrote: post #38
jedberg wrote: post #22

There is definitely an education bubble. It's way too easy to get money for college. You hear a lot of stories about the increasing costs of college and crushing debt on graduation, but you don't hear a lot of stories of "I wanted to go to college but couldn't get a loan". Almost everyone gets approved, regardless of their future ability to pay it back. We need a fundamental shift in the way college is paid for. Some…

> you'd probably see a lot more STEM degrees and a lot fewer of everything else I honestly think art schools are going to start running into problems convincing people it's a good idea to pay 60k a year for minimal ROI. My cousin wants to go into stage drama, and I don't want to tell her to not pursue her dream, but I think it's a lot to ask her to put herself in debt for years for a piece of paper that says she can…

There are some art and design schools who graduate students with great career prospects. In general people with really good modeling and animation skills can find work in entertainment. Not many people will pursue a career in drama, but I have worked with many people with that background who had great presentation and communication skills. This is an engineering heavy forum, but look around the place you work. Is everybody in management an engineer or scientist?

Re: Student Loan Debt Is Now as Big as the U.S. Junk Bond Market

#335

Post by mywittyname »

muraiki wrote: post #266
jedberg wrote: post #22

There is definitely an education bubble. It's way too easy to get money for college. You hear a lot of stories about the increasing costs of college and crushing debt on graduation, but you don't hear a lot of stories of "I wanted to go to college but couldn't get a loan". Almost everyone gets approved, regardless of their future ability to pay it back. We need a fundamental shift in the way college is paid for. Some…

You said: "...profitable majors, so you'd probably see a lot more STEM degrees and a lot fewer of everything else...". In terms of lifetime earnings, STEM is not necessarily a sure fire route: "'Students and parents have a pretty good idea of what majors pay the most, but they have a poor sense of the magnitude of the differences within the major,' said Douglas A. Webber, an associate professor of economics at Temple…

That article seems to contradict itself. They claim the pay difference is not big between STEM and liberal arts, then goes on to present data that clearly shows there's a big pay difference.

But then goes onto say the reason for the gender wage gap is not enough women choose STEM majors.

Re: Student Loan Debt Is Now as Big as the U.S. Junk Bond Market

#336

Post by Jeema101 »

ktta wrote: post #147
jartelt wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The article does compare them (albeit without much detail). “Delinquency rates on student loans are much higher than those on auto loans or mortgages, due to loose student loan underwriting standards, the unsecured nature of student debt, and the inability to charge off non-performing student loans in bankruptcy,” Goldman Sachs Group Inc. analysts Marty Young and Lotfi Karoui wrote in a note Tuesday. “The substantial…

If the default risk is borne by the US Treasury, then what risk do we have in general?

I think the main risk would be a deterioration in the government's finances since the government is expecting to get paid back and is factoring in those payments to the financial outlook. That could in turn lead to an increase in the government's borrowing costs, which could affect lots of other things negatively.

Re: Student Loan Debt Is Now as Big as the U.S. Junk Bond Market

#337

Post by Bartweiss »

weeksie wrote: post #305
Bartweiss wrote: post #287

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think I was unclear, or you're rounding my view off to a very different one that I admit is common. I'm a child of teachers, and I know quite a lot of people who teach in inner cities or narrowly made it out of impoverished towns because of good education. There's a reason I said "as well as an educational system", and I definitely don't believe the daycare role of schools is a reason to cut budgets or cut schoolin…

Apologies for completely misreading your post. And I agree with everything you've said.

Not a problem - as I reread my own post I realized that it only made sense in a very narrow context.

To the extent that I'm upset by education-as-daycare, it's only because I think they ought to be separate public services so each one can be done more efficiently. But that's a serious pipe dream, so for now I'd rather just double the budget of what exists and trust that the people involved are well-meaning enough to use it sensibly.

Re: Student Loan Debt Is Now as Big as the U.S. Junk Bond Market

#338

Post by wutbrodo »

0xfeba wrote: post #134
smallnamespace wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've seen this form of scientism playing out frequently on Reddit and other Internet forums lately. Discussion will be about some piece of controversial research, e.g. GMOs or vaccines. People who want to discuss the merits of the research are shouted down by what I can only describe as 'science fanbois' -- anything that is 'against science' must be wrong. They're missing the inherent tension in science between a rec…

> Some piece of controversial research, e.g. GMOs or vaccines Who or what determines what is controversial? To me, vaccines are not controversial at all. You can pick and choose specific ones to argue about, but the concept of vaccines is literally proven, beyond a doubt. As for GMOs, there's a lot more room but even still, the fundamentals are nothing controversial. This is also proven in pretty much anything you ca…

Controversial literally just means that there's strong, polarizing disagreement. It's fairly well-defined, and vaccines definitely qualify. This doesn't mean that examining the actual positions of each side would lead you to conclude that they're of equal worth: it just describes the significant disagreement that exists. (As opposed to, say, the heliocentric model)

Re: Student Loan Debt Is Now as Big as the U.S. Junk Bond Market

#339

Post by on_and_off »

ConceptJunkie wrote: post #155
jackweirdy wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Another solution is to let you go to school for free and then pay a percent of all your future earnings back to your college, or at least into a pool that pays for the next generation's college. We could call it income tax :)

The problem with subsidizing college in any way, including the current student loan system is that it encourages people to go to college whether it makes sense or not, and as several people have mentioned in this discussion, in a lot of cases, it doesn't make sense. Anyone who is properly motivated should be able to go to college, but when I hear cries for a free college education, I can imagine that that would stimu…

Higher education is pretty cheap in France.

It is not like it was a vacation. In most cases, you still have to pay a rent, food, etc ...

And you commit several years of your life to it, that's the most precious resource you can give.

I can't believe I am discussing this to be honest, that's an insane argument.

Re: Student Loan Debt Is Now as Big as the U.S. Junk Bond Market

#340

Post by ReinholdNiebuhr »

jedberg wrote: post #22

There is definitely an education bubble. It's way too easy to get money for college. You hear a lot of stories about the increasing costs of college and crushing debt on graduation, but you don't hear a lot of stories of "I wanted to go to college but couldn't get a loan". Almost everyone gets approved, regardless of their future ability to pay it back. We need a fundamental shift in the way college is paid for. Some…

I tend to lean libertarian, so that's my bias. I'll be upfront with that. That said, I'd be okay eliminating student loans both in government and even in private markets. Like private personal loans take over. I think it would work out over time.

I can't speak for the overall society, but I know personally I noticed locally amongst friends and family that when student loans became more widespread under Obama local private companies stopped paying for their employers to get nursing degrees, or other degrees. My sister got her RN and Masters degree through a program at the hospital she worked at, starting as a receptionist when 16. I knew someone who was a dishwasher at a michelin star restaurant and they paid for his culinary degree and worked to develop him. He's running his own joint now. It seems now not many employers are willing to pay the bill for education as the government is there to do that for them. I can't say this is perfect.. it seems any way you cut it people are going to get thrown under the bus.

Personally I paid upfront for college after years of working various jobs, I cherished every class a whole lot more I feel. Sure it's history and political science that I majored in, degrees many would view as useless. I think said studies are more vaulable when you're older, after you start building a life/career as they can certainly add compliment to one's understanding of reality. That said, I'm not advocating people not go into said fields at a younger age, it's a tricky issue. I know I would have hated studying STEM related stuff when younger and even when I went to college at an older age. Now I'm working on aquaculture stuff.. go figure.

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