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Coup attempt underway in Turkey

theatlantic.com

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Re: Coup attempt underway in Turkey

#331

Post by gkya »

blahi wrote: post #299
gkya wrote: post #283

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've gone through too much tonight to bother say anything about your ignorance. But sitting and waiting won't earn anything to anybody. Turkey as a member would be useful to EU. However if we had a popular vote now on whether to bother continue the negotiations, it'd certainly come out no, because the demeaning, hubristic, and unstable approach of the EU in our regards.

Yeah a dictator oppressing media and opposition definitely fits the EU, you are right and I am ignorant.

Turkey's EU negotiations started in AFAIK 1958. My country does not consist of Erdoğan. Let aside membership, if sincerity and welcomeness was shown, fundamentalists wouldn't be able to do more than dwell some mosques here.

And, Orban?

Re: Coup attempt underway in Turkey

#332

Post by tpush »

elcapitan wrote: post #310
cies wrote: post #307

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know for Hitler's July 20 coup, but he is known to have staged several "false flag" attacks against Germany / German gov't, while in power. For instance the Reichstag fire: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reichstag_fire And this one (which is not even "doubted" by Wikipedia): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gleiwitz_incident

The 20th of July was the coup against Hitler ("Valkyrie", https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Valkyrie ). And the Reichstag fire was not a false flag operation, it was just exploited afterwards as an excuse to finish up German democracy. The perpetrator had a criminal record for arson. Maybe you should read articles that you link to?

And the Reichstag fire was not a false flag operation, it was just exploited afterwards as an excuse to finish up German democracy. The perpetrator had a criminal record for arson. Maybe you should read articles that you link to?

From the Reichsbrand Wikipedia link:

The responsibility for the Reichstag fire remains an ongoing topic of debate and research.[3][4] Historians disagree as to whether van der Lubbe acted alone, as he said, to protest the condition of the German working class. The Nazis accused the Comintern of the act. Some historians endorse the theory, proposed by the Communist Party, that the arson was planned and ordered by the Nazis as a false flag operation.[5]

Re: Coup attempt underway in Turkey

#333

Post by gkya »

bArray wrote: post #322
gkya wrote: post #283

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've gone through too much tonight to bother say anything about your ignorance. But sitting and waiting won't earn anything to anybody. Turkey as a member would be useful to EU. However if we had a popular vote now on whether to bother continue the negotiations, it'd certainly come out no, because the demeaning, hubristic, and unstable approach of the EU in our regards.

People hate change and anything that challenges their current perceptions. Don't take it too personally. I completely agree with what you've said regardless of whether I want it to be false. The EU certainly requires some changing as yet.

Thanks. I couldn't not respond because that was really arrogant of him and I do know many think similarly. Ultimately I am an atheist, so not directly affected by his words, but that stance causes many problems unfortunately.

Re: Coup attempt underway in Turkey

#334

Post by TruthAndDare »

Steeeve wrote: post #288
Animats wrote: post #282

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Turns out that it wasn't entirely, or even mostly. Erdogan's call that did it. The mosques turned on their call-to-prayer PA systems and ordered their followers into the streets. [1] http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/07/15/turkey-low-flying...

It's disturbing that leaders (political or religious) would put their constituents in harms way. I keep reading that Erdogan is popular, but I also read that he was elected with only 13% of the vote.

> It's disturbing that leaders (political or religious) would put their constituents in harms way.

Like this? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0r73p95I-eE

Or like in any military force, unless there was coercion going on here.

Re: Coup attempt underway in Turkey

#336

Post by mtgx »

jonah wrote: post #153
mtgx wrote: post #140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure, when you have an army backing you up. Do you think a revolution would be televised in Russia or China without the army's support? Even in the U.S., it would probably be covered as "terrorists trying to take over the White House" or whatever.

And is it actually revolution if those with power are simply exercising their power? Can the powerless even stage a successful revolution?

I'm not sure. Many so called revolutions actually had outside help (usually from the U.S.).

Re: Coup attempt underway in Turkey

#337

Post by seanccox »

Current coup summary:

250 people dead (according to The Guardian), 1440+ injured.

According to Turkey's Chief of Staff, the coup was against President Erdogan's government, launched by troops from the Turkish Air Force and Gendarmerie.

Erdogan asserts the coup is over, but some reports suggest the calm in Ankara indicates the coup succeeded there, and that there is presently a stalemate between government and anti-government forces.

The Turkish government just ordered the dismissal of 2745 judges from their seats. According to Reuters, there were 7604 judges in Turkey total, so ~36% were removed from duty.

Re: Coup attempt underway in Turkey

#338

Post by elcapitan »

tpush wrote: post #332
elcapitan wrote: post #310

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The 20th of July was the coup against Hitler ("Valkyrie", https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Valkyrie ). And the Reichstag fire was not a false flag operation, it was just exploited afterwards as an excuse to finish up German democracy. The perpetrator had a criminal record for arson. Maybe you should read articles that you link to?

And the Reichstag fire was not a false flag operation, it was just exploited afterwards as an excuse to finish up German democracy. The perpetrator had a criminal record for arson. Maybe you should read articles that you link to? From the Reichsbrand Wikipedia link: The responsibility for the Reichstag fire remains an ongoing topic of debate and research.[3][4] Historians disagree as to whether van der Lubbe acted al…

If you actually read the two sources for that statement, it's clear that the disagreement is about the party affiliation. Except for communists claiming it to be a false flag operation, there is nothing in support of that theory and nobody supporting it.

Re: Coup attempt underway in Turkey

#339

Post by jokoon »

ThomPete wrote: post #329
jokoon wrote: post #319

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Like any elected leader who want to serve their country. Not defending Erdogan here. Just being wary when people advocate for the removal of an authoritarian leader (Saddam, Assad...). It's easy to talk about free speech technologies when we enjoy the comfort we have. It's harder to look at history and try to have a conversation.

I don't understand what you mean. The original comment was that it's ironic that Ergodan who is against social media (and thus block as much as he can) was using the very social media to stop the attempt. How does that turn into "it's easy to talk about free speech technologies..." ?

I'm kinda tired of constantly reading about free speech and its virtues, and how people who don't have that culture are somehow backward. I know free speech is a good thing, but when you venture in the middle east, free speech doesn't matter because there is much less public order. Politicians know that people don't have this culture of free speech and must act accordingly.

Outside of the US, people don't consider using something as a political statement or general endorsement.

For example there are many politicians who are against europe in general. They still hold a seat at the parliament, because they can.

When poor people in africa use cellphones, should they change their opinion about the country it came from ?

What bothers me is the whole "you used a technology you were against and it helped you". Sure, it is contradictory, but when the stakes are high like in a coup, politicians have to forget their stance a little. It's another domain of scenario. History in politics is full of contradictions, so what bothered me is that easy sniping remark about social media while there's a freaking coup attempt. I don't think people care so much about a neat social media application while a parliament is being bombed. Those techs devices and infrastructure were paid for, everyone use them. The tech is not from there, so of course a politician won't really approve of it.

The general tone that bothers me is that when tech people read the news and they only read the tech part, not the rest.

Re: Coup attempt underway in Turkey

#340

Post by danielscrubs »

bArray wrote: post #270
back_beyond wrote: post #265

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The EU is comprised of over 500 million people from a variety of backgrounds, many of which are indeed Muslim. Hardly an echo chamber. I fail to see what additional growth could be fostered through adding a Muslim majority country. Would you care to elaborate?

@gkya has done a good job of elaborating part of the reason being the Westernisation of Islam. The EU is a highly Christian dominated place with a "them vs us" mentality. The EU tries to fix the world's problems without ever engaging the world's cultures. It's not about growth, it's about the future of civilisation. It's at a time where we need to be taking down barriers, not putting more up. We may not financially b…

Highly christian? I don't know a single christian and I've lived here for 30 years. We have the least religious countries _in the world_! Otherwise it sounds good but I hope you are not all talk and are yourself giving money to other religious entities.
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