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Apple Encryption Engineers, If Ordered to Unlock iPhone, Might Resist

nytimes.com

331–340 of 376 posts

Re: Apple Encryption Engineers, If Ordered to Unlock iPhone, Might Resist

#331
post #36
post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The DOJ couldn't shut down apple. Apple has $200,000,000,000 in cash and marketable securities. DOJ's budget is only 27 billion. That's a lot of lawyer time. It's a huge waste of money, but there it is. Way less likely, but Apple could move HQ to another country. And take their secret source code and keys with them.

I wonder if there's any advantage for Apple to form their own sovereign nation to operate out of. They are already richer than many existing countries. Can't they just buy out a Singapore-sized island somewhere?

[deleted]

Re: Apple Encryption Engineers, If Ordered to Unlock iPhone, Might Resist

#332
post #211

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> contact your representatives and let them know you care. Unless you have a lot of money, your representatives don't care. It seems like the only way to make progress is to support stronger encryption, with less of a possibility of engineering backdoors.

Apple has $38 Billion in liquid assets [1]. Facebook has $18 Billion [2]. Amazon has $20 Billion [3]. Alphabet (fka Google) has $73 Billion [4]. Microsoft has $102 Billion [5]. In the last quarter of 2015, the largest companies by market capitalization were Apple, Alphabet, and Microsoft [6]. All of the companies I've mentioned have filed or joined in an Amicus Curiae brief in support of Apple [7]. If money mattered…

Another take on this issue is that the FBI and NSA have a strong opposing interest. While they may not lobby in the same sense as Apple etc., they do represent law enforcement, which is an enormously powerful lobby in the US. So all those private companies are on one side, sure, but US law enforcement is on the other, and that's quite a fight (and one that law enforcement has been winning for a long time now).

Re: Apple Encryption Engineers, If Ordered to Unlock iPhone, Might Resist

#333
post #324

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No they were not...none of the examples you gave were democratic Republics that were based on the Rule of Law, so I'm not sure what's to discuss here. Comparing the US today with Soviet Russia under Stalin or NK under Kim is so ill-informed its impossible to process.

North Korea is known as "The Democratic People's Republic of Korea". All of the others listed self-identified as democratic nations in the respective periods I refer to. In the USSR, the Communist party was "elected" time and time again, in "democratic" elections. They had a "mandate from the people". To completely disregard any comparison because "they're bad and we're good" is so dogmatic and jingoistic it's imposs…

> Would you really quantify that as the rule of law, or as arbitrary rule?

It's somewhat arbitrary within a pretty solid framework, if you want my opinion.

My OP and this thread was about macro-level rule of law, my other comment was micro-level obviously.

No one is talking about "bad and good" here, I'm just saying you cannot compare them as you have attempted to do, as the fundamental differences defy equivalence.

Re: Apple Encryption Engineers, If Ordered to Unlock iPhone, Might Resist

#334
post #159
post #56

Son, go to your room! But I don't want to go to my room! Son, go to your room! Mommy, what would happen if on the way to my room I ran into a pack of wild dogs in the hallway blocking my path? Would I still have to go to my room?

We detached this subthread from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11309007 and marked it off-topic.

It's off topic to point out that bringing up an extreme hypothetical as a reason to not do something is pretty bad defense?

Really?

Re: Apple Encryption Engineers, If Ordered to Unlock iPhone, Might Resist

#335
post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are a lot more than 5 people who can do what the FBI wants done. Your hypothetical doesn't really seem all that relevant.

So, what's next? Does the government round up coders they think are capable and force them to program?

My point is that there is no need to round up anyone. There are plenty of coders who are happy to do the job in return for a fair salary.

Re: Apple Encryption Engineers, If Ordered to Unlock iPhone, Might Resist

#336

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, its acknowledgement that sometimes the few are left to defend the rights of many. This is how it works in a lot of areas. If Apple loses this round, our best hope is they push this debate to the SCOTUS and set the proper precedent there. Educating the masses isn't going to change much, as we have no say in the current system. Think about this: Do you think the President, or any of the candidates, know much of any…

> If Apple loses this round, our best hope is they push this debate to the SCOTUS [editing what I wrote, I missed something you said] I believe our best hope is to start informing the public about encryption so that when more laws about encryption start appearing, then they are knowledgeable enough to let their representatives know how they feel about it. The idea is to inform enough so that the government is unable…

Shortish response here. You didn't offend me, man, and I don't stand in opposition to your ideals. What bothers me is that you're advocating public education whilst providing inaccurate narrative. You, yourself, have suggested education through analogies; that in and of itself demonstrates that the concept is too complex for proper education. You have to simplify it, which belies and confuses the depth of the topic. No, that's not anti-encryption law. Anti-encryption would mean there is no encryption, which will never happen; instead it tries to force backdoor encryption which could have a similar effect but is not the same thing. This is the fallacy of trying to simplify the concepts for the masses, and a byproduct of our modern media and information dissemination.

The narrative you've put forth is: "They're trying to remove encryption entirely so we aren't safe." when in reality it's "They're trying to backdoor our encryption, which makes us feel safe even though we aren't". The former conveys an obvious threat, while the latter conveys a much deeper and nebulous threat. I have to explain this concept to you, and we're both invested in the industry and the technologies involved; Do you think grandma is going to be aware of it, understand it, and take meaningful action? Considering the long and continuing overreach of TSA/DHS/FBI/NSA, the odds are slim. That sucks, but it's a reality. Your narrative wasn't an intentional manipulation, but an accident due to inaccuracies and misrepresentations; all too often the people on the other side do it intentionally.

I agree there can and should be more educated people responsible for legislation in the government, but that's part of a larger problem; The need for complete reform and transparency. The system in its entirety is broken and ineffectual and that's not likely to change any time soon. While we vote for a candidate, we elect a cabinet we usually don't even know about until the election is over. Think about that for a second. Now add in the fact that modern law enforcement will break rules first before being eventually regulated. The FBI and NSA have learned to follow the curve we've been using for years: Technology and innovation outpace regulation. This is just one tiny aspect of the overall complexity of this one single problem.

I would say it's not that technologists don't want to participate, it's that we have learned to direct our focus and energy to where it has the most impact; or realize that we don't have control to exert and choose to support those that do.

You, sir, keep being awesome and do what you feel is right. Just make sure you don't oversimplify massive problems for the sake of spreading awareness. That leads to people starting fights with misinformation; drugs are bad, muslims are terrorists, poor people are lazy, etc, etc.

Re: Apple Encryption Engineers, If Ordered to Unlock iPhone, Might Resist

#337

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, its acknowledgement that sometimes the few are left to defend the rights of many. This is how it works in a lot of areas. If Apple loses this round, our best hope is they push this debate to the SCOTUS and set the proper precedent there. Educating the masses isn't going to change much, as we have no say in the current system. Think about this: Do you think the President, or any of the candidates, know much of any…

Do you think the President, or any of the candidates, know much of anything about technology? Do you think they understand the intricacies of encryption? Would they even be able to name standard cypher suites? No, because that's not part of their education or job function. They rely on the few, their advisors, just like they do with most major issues. How far down the advisor and lackey chain do you need to go before…

Which is the larger concept I'm trying not to expound on too much.

Complete government reform and transparency are what is needed to correct most of the huge problems our world faces. Who has the ear of the king, can they be trusted, are they qualified, who has their ear, etc.

Re: Apple Encryption Engineers, If Ordered to Unlock iPhone, Might Resist

#338

Taking this further down the rabbit hole: Suppose that only about 5 people can do what the FBI wants done. Suppose all 5 refuse, to the point of quitting Apple. Does the FBI now compel them to return to Apple and write the software or go to jail? And what if one of those engineers says that he doesn't actually know how to do it; Apple only thought he could, but he actually can't. Now we get into territory of proving…

What if now developers start quitting en-mass. Developers refuse to join apple because they would be required to do something morally objectionable to them.

Ah who am I kidding, there's always a dude willing to give away his baby's kidney for money. Systems that screw people over are built by humans.

Re: Apple Encryption Engineers, If Ordered to Unlock iPhone, Might Resist

#339
post #219

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is actually very simple. The state can just harass them into compliance. Tools at the state's disposal include but are not limited to: #Legal: * Judge orders them to comply, if they refuse they can be considered to be in contempt and incarcerated for a de facto arbitrary period of time at the judge's discretion (vide https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/H._Beatty_Chadwick incarcerated for contempt for 14 years just bec…

What? Yes, a judge could hold them in contempt and jail them for some time. That's the only legal option. It's possible they could seize some assets as part of the contempt charge, but there are already plenty of legal groups that would jump at the opportunity to represent them pro bono. The other suggestions you offer are, to be blunt, those of a conspiracy nut.

Lets ask a very simple question - - given the choice "comply or go to jail" would you comply? - would your wife approve of your "I don't care, throw me in jail?" when she no longer has access to your funds because they got frozen and rent is due? - how about kids? Do you think she would approve of how it would affect their life?

Welcome to real world.

Re: Apple Encryption Engineers, If Ordered to Unlock iPhone, Might Resist

#340
post #219

Taking this further down the rabbit hole: Suppose that only about 5 people can do what the FBI wants done. Suppose all 5 refuse, to the point of quitting Apple. Does the FBI now compel them to return to Apple and write the software or go to jail? And what if one of those engineers says that he doesn't actually know how to do it; Apple only thought he could, but he actually can't. Now we get into territory of proving…

This is actually very simple. The state can just harass them into compliance. Tools at the state's disposal include but are not limited to: #Legal: * Judge orders them to comply, if they refuse they can be considered to be in contempt and incarcerated for a de facto arbitrary period of time at the judge's discretion (vide https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/H._Beatty_Chadwick incarcerated for contempt for 14 years just bec…

What? No. More than half of those things cannot be done in this case. You're being paranoid.
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