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Defeated

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Re: Defeated

#321

Post by alan_cx »

fixxer wrote: post #296
trekky1700 wrote: post #281

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Or take the train.

TSA is going there. http://www.nytimes.com/2013/08/06/us/tsa-expands-duties-beyo...

Air travel locked down by armed guards, searching and demanding identity, now trains. What's next, buses? Then what, UK levels of CCTV, face recognition motorway(freeway) cameras? Oh yeah, we Brits have those. What is the limit here, can we expect check points on roads? Add to that comprehensive, industrial slurping of all electronic data and metadata. Almost forgot, a mostly compliant and controlled media and a political class who knows the NSA have all their personal data from 10 odd years. Damn, another one.... a huge military intelligence industrial complex which "donates" a fair amount of money to both US political parties, and of course expect nothing in return. (BTW, isn't the military the biggest and most powerful union in the US?). Freedom of movement, gone. Freedom of expression, monitored. Political freedom and independence, bought. Anything left? Is picking the channel on a TV or chose our clothes all the freedom we humans need? Heh, I could even make an argument that those are also controlled, at least highly manipulated.

At times like this I want to kick Godwin in the nuts.

Re: Defeated

#322

Post by larrys »

rayiner wrote: post #131

I just don't get the deal with the millimeter wave scanners. Did everyone raise a fuss like this when airports had you walk through metal detectors? How is a millimeter wave scanner different than a high-tech metal detector? Aren't we always talking about how the law needs to "catch up to technology?" Don't get me wrong, I think the TSA is a huge waste of money and I hate being ordered around by flunkies who can't ge…

People appear to be standing on principle more than anything else. If you are at the airport you will see that the overwhelming majority of people have no issues going through the scanners. People from all walks of life with all sorts of jobs and intelligence. Curious also how many of these people who are standing on principle (or fringe science) smoke cigarettes or do other harmful activities (climb mountains or use power tools without eye protection).

"I hate being ordered around by flunkies who can't get any other job every time I go to the airport"

Well do you think they should merely raise the wage in order to attract higher qualified people that would normally go into other careers? You can get frustrated because when you get served in a restaurant they get the order wrong or you can realize that the rocket scientists are not holding jobs serving you in a restaurant and realize things are the way they are for a reason.

Are you interested in giving up whatever job you have and working at the TSA (or any lower level government job say a postal carrier?) I'm not so I've learned to accept these things as necessary economically.

Re: Defeated

#323

Post by larrys »

tomelders wrote: post #73
tzaman wrote: post #65

This is the second time in a week I have read about people refusing to go through security scanners, and then complaining about being treated differently . You should really put yourselves into security guards' skins here; What if you were him/her? You'd observe millions of people do the same stuff day in, day out, and out of those million, a small percent would refuse to do what's required of everyone - pass the sta…

The agents are 'supposed' to be protecting America. Not just the people, but it's ideals as laid out in the constitution and the bill of rights. If someone in that position takes umbrage with someone else exercising their rights, then they are the wrong person for the job. You don't have to like it, just like I don't have to like reading the endless swill of weak minded, shortsighted arguments like the brain numbingl…

"Not just the people, but it's ideals as laid out in the constitution and the bill of rights."

Where are you getting that from? They have a job to do which they were hired to do. At the end of the day they go home, eat dinner and watch TV. Nothing more than that.

Why don't you go out and talk to them and see if (other than lip service) they have a clue at all about what you are suggesting they should be protecting.

Re: Defeated

#324

Post by dragontamer »

DamnYuppie wrote: post #310
pquerna wrote: post #298

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Many of my ancestors immigrated to the Americas in the 17th or 18th century. Best case I have something like 4th or 5th cousins in Europe. Not someone I can just drop into their lives.

I wasn't insinuating that you go back from whence your family came. I was trying to point out that it is in human nature to migrate to somewhere that holds the possibility of a better life. Not knowing the culture or language is not as big of a barrier as people are making it out to be.

Not knowing the culture or language is as big of a barrier as people are making it out to be.

The #1 concern of someone leaving a country, is whether or not the receiving country is actually a better place. It is absolutely critical to understand the culture of where you're going to, if you expect to evaluate how you're gonna live.

Re: Defeated

#325

Post by takluyver »

cavilling_elite wrote: post #287
eloisius wrote: post #213

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Some fights are worth fighting if only to retain your dignity. I won't volunteer my rights; if they want them they will have to take them by force (i.e., the threat of not being allowed to travel). I won't do them the favor of ignoring the gun in the room.

Agreed, I opt-out every time I can. This gives me a chance to talk to the TSA agent. This puts human faces on the, typically, blurry screen of human mass. When they ask why I opt-out, I explain about the numerous times I have filled out the comment cards mentioning the real danger of cataracts because you don't tell people to close their eyes. Explain that my engineering background fully understands both the x-ray an…

Can you elaborate on the risk to eyes? I've not heard about this, and Wikipedia doesn't mention it, either for mm-wave or backscatter (I hadn't even realised there were two different technologies in use until now). What kind of risk level are we talking about? Do your eyelids offer any real protection against it?

Re: Defeated

#326

Post by astrodust »

progx wrote: post #319
this_user wrote: post #145

Earlier quoted context omitted.

May I remind you of the RAF( ), checkpoints manned by police armed with semi-automatic rifles and the use of dragnets in the late 70's and early 80's? Our hands aren't as clean as we would like to believe. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_Army_Faction

And ? Did the terrorists won in germany ? Did germany has a totalitarian monitoring state ? Or reject human rights ?

Look, you cannot say that Germany in the 20th century was a bastion of freedom and respect of human rights.

Just because things have been relatively chill the past twenty years does not mean it's time to start boasting.

Re: Defeated

#327

Post by astrodust »

outworlder wrote: post #124
jballanc wrote: post #32

There is an extremely simple solution: leave. I've not lived in the US for almost two years now. I've only had to travel back twice in that time. Meanwhile, in the same time I've visited France, Belgium, the Netherlands, and Germany multiple times. None of those travel experiences were nearly as unpleasant or stressful as my two trips to the US. Furthermore, the technology communities that are growing up in these pla…

Leaving your own country is never "simple".

Maybe if you're a loner with no friends or attachments, sure.

Most people have lives. If you've ever seen people struggling to get by in what looks like a bombed out hellhole, remember this. People in Zimbabwe, Lebanon, and even Detroit are suffering, but only because for them the alternative is even worse: Being disconnected.

Re: Defeated

#328

Post by epoxyhockey »

arnarbi wrote: post #303
potatolicious wrote: post #254

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A few reasons: - They actively image your naked body. Metal detectors do not. - They record said image of our naked body for an indefinite amount of time. Metal detectors do not. - A human views the image of your naked body, and makes a subjective assessment of whether or not something suspicious has been detected, based on a wide range of parameters. A metal detector is a simple on/off detection based on an extremel…

As backed up by xxpor, I don't think this is true. But mainly, I don't see the tremendous opportunity for abuse, unless you are some sort of celebrity whose blurry nude pictures are valuable.

I don't see the tremendous opportunity for abuse

The TSA says that there is no human in the loop and that they are no longer storing images. I don't know how much trust and credibility they have left these days (esp. after claiming xray scanners were perfectly safe to use).

Re: Defeated

#330

Post by amirmc »

jballanc wrote: post #172
amirmc wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Airports are only a symptom of a wider problem and I see this as running away. Much like when a bear is chasing you, you only have to be faster than those around you. Eventually the bear will chase you again and you'll be the only one left. To make that a little more concrete, you can only keep moving while there are viable places to move to . Sure, that's probably fine for our lifetimes but we're handing on a legacy…

I'd like to replace your bear with a pendulum. History has shown that public sentiment towards authoritarianism is cyclical. Certainly Nazi Germany represented an authoritarian regime that was more repressive than the current US government (history will tell how long this remains true...), but that played out. Now Germany has a wonderful framework of laws and regulations to guard personal privacy. What leaving does i…

> "Now Germany has a wonderful framework of laws and regulations to guard personal privacy."

The part you're conveniently forgetting is at what cost?

Sure, the pendulum may swing back the other way eventually but how many lives are going to be destroyed during these unnecessary oscillations.

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