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Kaiser nurses say AI, surveillance are making their jobs and patient care worse

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Re: Kaiser nurses say AI, surveillance are making their jobs and patient care worse

#321

Post by doodlebugging »

scottjg wrote: post #294
doodlebugging wrote: post #18

This problem with workplace AI interfering with nurses ability to manage healthcare obligations for their clients is not confined to Kaiser. UHC has also introduced the AI surveillance tools and are using it to do similar things.

Kaiser is a vertically integrated healthcare provider. They provide insurance like UHC but they also require you, for the most part, to be treated in Kaiser medical facilities. How can UHC use AI in the same way? They're an insurance company. They're not administering the actual healthcare?

>How can UHC use AI in the same way? They're an insurance company. They're not administering the actual healthcare?

UHC, the HC stands for Health Care, does have a field operation that handles home health care evaluations for those who live in rural areas with minimal access to medical facilities. Those patients are visited regularly by field personnel, trained nurses, who evaluate their conditions and insure that they have access to appropriate treatments for their conditions. Part of the evaluation of appropriate treatments has recently been pushed off to an AI-based system which uses various inputs to determine eligibility for treatment options.

Re: Kaiser nurses say AI, surveillance are making their jobs and patient care worse

#322

Post by bagels »

bananaflag wrote: post #309
LoganDark wrote: post #195

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I never heard people calling machine learning "AI" until large language models made it trivial to market it as such. Like, I remember back when Netflix, for instance, was going around advertising how machine learning (not AI) powers their recommendations.

In 2011, I took an AI course at my university and it was all perceptrons and neural networks.

I took one longer ago than that and it wasn't all perceptrons and neural networks. It included other things too, like: planning, search methods, inference engines, decision trees, ...

Re: Kaiser nurses say AI, surveillance are making their jobs and patient care worse

#323

Post by golem14 »

inopinatus wrote: post #300
LoganDark wrote: post #243

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't see how including machine learning under the artificial intelligence umbrella counts as calling machine learning AI.

My local supermarket places the almond milk in the dairy section, and some people find this very upsetting.

My local cvs refused to let me buy non-alcoholic Bloody Mary mix aka spicy tomato juice without ID, because it was slotted in the alcoholic category.

Re: Kaiser nurses say AI, surveillance are making their jobs and patient care worse

#324

Post by charlieyu1 »

ClumsyPilot wrote: post #165
BeetleB wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you employ a few hundred nurses, how exactly would you evaluate how well they show empathy? You can't rely on asking the customer. When they're upset (they often are in these calls), they'll lean towards the negative regardless. I don't know how well these AIs evaluate, but if they're even a little bit good, it makes sense to use it to screen for outliers, then have a human listen to those outliers and judge.

> You can't rely on asking the customer It’s not even been five years of AI, and we’ve already arrived at the point where the human is wrong and the AI is right. Mind you this is in an area where the benchmark is the opinion of the human ! So if the customer is saying you’ve shown enough empathy but AI says you haven’t, then you take opinion of the AI? Soon we’re going to have a situation where the patient is breathi…

I mean the same KPI crap has existed for decades

Re: Kaiser nurses say AI, surveillance are making their jobs and patient care worse

#325

Post by fragmede »

granzymes wrote: post #205
LoganDark wrote: post #192

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's machine learning, which has overlap with AI but is not completely equivalent.

The “overlap” is that all machine learning is AI, but not all AI is machine learning.

To me they're the same thing. If there's a bunch of training data that is fed into a system that creates a model, then it's not traditional programming, where someone laboriously writes out if statements by hand. AI and ML aren't, as far as I'm aware, rigorously specifically defined terms. They're words that marketing picked up and ran with it. To me, what matters is: is there a black box somewhere in the system that's a bag of numbers, or is it code that a human could dig in and read.

Re: Kaiser nurses say AI, surveillance are making their jobs and patient care worse

#326

Post by LoganDark »

inopinatus wrote: post #300
LoganDark wrote: post #243

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't see how including machine learning under the artificial intelligence umbrella counts as calling machine learning AI.

My local supermarket places the almond milk in the dairy section, and some people find this very upsetting.

That example kind of illustrates my point though? ML being in an AI book doesn't mean ML is AI, just as being in the dairy section does not make almond milk dairy.

Re: Kaiser nurses say AI, surveillance are making their jobs and patient care worse

#327

Post by disgruntledphd2 »

tyfon wrote: post #317
kennywinker wrote: post #212

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is still a categorical difference between how they are being used. Specifically analytic vs generative. Generative AI (LLMs and image generators) are the ones people have issues with - pretty much nobody cares about ML processing for analysis.

> pretty much nobody cares about ML processing for analysis. I work in a bank and a can tell you that the customers absolutely hate ML when it rejects their loan application. Over the pond in the US, I have an impression that the fico score is not exactly popular either, but I have no first hand experience.

As long as you can get a reason from the model, it's not that bad.

Black box automatic decision making is much more problematic.

Re: Kaiser nurses say AI, surveillance are making their jobs and patient care worse

#328

Post by axus »

terminal-bloom wrote: post #132
abeindoria wrote: post #100

That is surprising. My primary care provider had a different response. Basically he said something in line of "You wouldn't believe how much of a relief it has been. In your last visit, you saw me typing everything you were saying, right? I don't have to. I can listen to you and take very specific notes as necessary as opposed to focusing on both typing and listening to you at the same time. It has bought my stress l…

I’d be more willing to consent to these tools if I had confidence that the underlying software truly was built to honor my privacy. Too many AI tools are built hastily for me to give my doctor’s (visibly awful) software the trust.

I use Kaiser, recently their webpage asked nicely if I would sign a HIPAA waiver to share my data with third parties for marketing purposes. The default was Deny and they made that easy, but it was concerning.

Re: Kaiser nurses say AI, surveillance are making their jobs and patient care worse

#329

Post by disgruntledphd2 »

AdieuToLogic wrote: post #226
granzymes wrote: post #205

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The “overlap” is that all machine learning is AI, but not all AI is machine learning.

> The “overlap” is that all machine learning is AI ... "All machine learning" is not AI, as k-means clustering and linear regression, amongst others, are very much ML without qualifying as AI algorithms.

Technically linear regression is statistics rather than ML, but I feel like the GNU/Linux people whenever I point that out.

Re: Kaiser nurses say AI, surveillance are making their jobs and patient care worse

#330

Post by andor »

nunez wrote: post #235
ch4s3 wrote: post #185

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s machine learning, which people routinely called AI not so long ago.

ML was always marketed separately as AI/ML, with AI being things like CNNs/RNNs/BERTs and such. Always felt like a distinction without a difference.

Laypeople are changing how “AI” is used in common language, like they previously did for “algorithm” and “crypto”.

The textbook definition of AI is a system that solves problems that are difficult for humans. Whether the approach uses formal logic, machine learning, neural networks as a special case of machine learning, optimization, search problems, etc. does not matter.

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