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iOS allows alternative browser engines in Japan

developer.apple.com

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Re: iOS allows alternative browser engines in Japan

#321

Post by idonotknowwhy »

MBCook wrote: post #172

I’m not going to say I think Apple should be able to lock out competing browsers, I know this is going to happen. But God I don’t want this. The iPhone is basically the only thing stopping a total Chrome/Chromium hegemony from ruling the web the way IE did. I don’t think Google will practically abandon things the way Microsoft did. But they will absolutely have the kind of power Microsoft did to force any feature. I…

100% agreed, and I've been explaining this to people for the past year.

I have an iPhone now and miss Firefox for Android (with Ublock, sponsorblock, etc). But this painful restriction is the only thing stopping Chrome from becoming the new IE6.

At a few startups I've worked for, the devs all use chrome exclusively, and only test in chrome during development.

The only reason they consider other browsers, is because of Safari on iOS. Sometimes it's driven by support calls / complains from iOS users after a release. If Chrome's engine is allowed on iOS, that means support can just tell the users to install Chrome (like they do now if anyone has issues on Windows in other browsers). This means Firefox will usually work as well.

Many years ago, I was able to swap banks when my bank's website stopped working in Opera 12. If all the major banks / websites target Chrome-only, we'll have no choice but to use it. And then we'll have no control as Google push new restrictions into Chrome.

Re: iOS allows alternative browser engines in Japan

#322

Post by Max-Limelihood »

MBCook wrote: post #304
s3p wrote: post #295

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And its userbase is essentially just HN users unfortunately

And it’s trying to get them to run away as fast as possible. Firefox is not going to save us again. It’s arguably part of the problem in a different way.

It's amazing how you can literally start a nonprofit to code a billion-dollar browser, give it away for free, and let people modify it however they want and then HN users will still find a way to act like this is being evil and exploitative. It's as if they care more about whining than they do about their supposed open-source principles.

Re: iOS allows alternative browser engines in Japan

#323

Post by Max-Limelihood »

brokencode wrote: post #313
MBCook wrote: post #305

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Microsoft didn’t control the number one search engine, the number one email client, the number one video site, probably the number one online office suite, the number one smartphone platform… It was possible to rip people away from Microsoft. That may not be something we can do this time with Chrome. Try telling someone that moving off of Chrome may mean moving off of every single Google property because Chrome is th…

Then it’d be time for round two of antitrust, and I doubt the judge and regulators would feel so understanding about Google keeping Chrome if that is the landscape.

I think they might be, but only as long as it stays open-source (assuming we mean it works on Chromium and not Chrome). Honestly, I fundamentally don't have a problem with an open-source browser having a monopoly, because the open-source nature means that if things get bad you can always just fork it and make something better.

Re: iOS allows alternative browser engines in Japan

#324

Post by otterley »

leptons wrote: post #310
otterley wrote: post #182

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Apple made it very clear that their security concerns related to third party browsing engines are about difficult-to-contain threats posed by JIT compilation. (JITs require non-text memory pages to be executable.) Apple doesn’t allow other apps to use such technology, so they’re consistent in that respect. Apple even disables JIT for Safari itself when you put an iPhone in lockdown mode, at no small cost to performan…

That's just their excuse. Javascript is used on practically every web browser in existence, across billions of devices, and it does not have the security risks that Apple claims. It just doesn't. There are plenty of other flaws in their own web browser that have allowed remote code execution, but Javascript isn't typically one of them, in any browser, in any platform, in the last decade or more. And there are plenty…

First, are you a security expert? If so, please provide your bona fides. Apple employs some of the brightest software and hardware security experts in the business. (Cellebrite can attest to this; they possess far fewer capabilities to crack iPhones than every other phone on the market.) If they perceive handling out JIT capabilities to apps as risky, I believe them. You, on the other hand, come with no evidence to the contrary other than a bare assertion.

Second, I already told you that there is no claim in the complaint that Apple is withholding Safari features in order to pad its apps business. If you believe otherwise, please provide relevant passages from the complaint.

Third, you’ve never had to reply to any of my comments. That’s on you.

Re: iOS allows alternative browser engines in Japan

#325

Post by Loudergood »

geon wrote: post #284
concinds wrote: post #241

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can't wait until regulators do their job and take away Apple's dictatorial control, in all areas , and all these doom-and-gloom predictions on all these tangential issues end up proving ludicrous. What kind of control would Chrome have over the web? Adding APIs doesn't force the billions of websites to adopt them. So what if a website adds WebBluetooth? You don't want the web to have that anyway, and if you keep us…

> If scrappy Firefox Because ie at the time was dogshit . FF was such an indisputable improvement that people just had to switch. Chrome great. There is nothing a newcomer can do to compete.

Additionally, the predatory UI in Windows that pushes Edge, and on Google.com that push Chrome, simply did not exist at the time.

Re: iOS allows alternative browser engines in Japan

#326

Post by Max-Limelihood »

MBCook wrote: post #306
kmeisthax wrote: post #255

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While this excuse works today , we should not forget that this policy also meant disinviting Mozilla from the mobile browser party about a decade ago. I'd argue a good chunk of Mozilla's downfall was them chasing the pipe dream of Boot2Gecko, and that was specifically because they couldn't ship Gecko on iOS. The reason why we have a Chrome/Safari hegemony is because Apple insisted on everything being Safari on their…

I would argue that the root of the problem is that Google was not broken up. I don’t think one company should own all the stuff that Google does. It gives them way too many perverse incentives over the web. I’m not saying it’s smart we got here. I’m not saying it’s good we got here. I’m not saying we should be here. All I’m saying is we ARE here. And given that (effective screw up) I fear this will make things drasti…

> I don’t think one company should own all the stuff that Google does. It gives them way too many perverse incentives over the web.

Does it? It might give them perverse incentives in some cases, but in others it perfectly aligns their incentives by letting them internalize their externalities. The whole selling point of Chrome to executives, and the reason it's introduced so many nice features, is that consolidating means they have an incentive to invest in things that make their websites work better (a better Chrome means a better Google/Gmail/YouTube/Drive).

Re: iOS allows alternative browser engines in Japan

#327

Post by otterley »

leptons wrote: post #312
otterley wrote: post #260

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What “less secure” browser are you “forced” to use? And why?

You seem to need a bigger context window, and a memory. The less secure browser is Safari .

Please don’t speak for others.

The form of questioning is intentional. The person I was responding to claimed they were “forced” to do use a “less secure” browser despite the existence of alternatives like Android. I’m awaiting further details, but anticipate none: most of these conversations boil down to an admission such as, “I’m not really forced to do anything; I just want Apple to let me have my cake and eat it, too” — all while discounting the risks it could impose since they shamelessly believe they know better than the domain experts.

Re: iOS allows alternative browser engines in Japan

#328

Post by otterley »

leptons wrote: post #309
otterley wrote: post #182

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Apple made it very clear that their security concerns related to third party browsing engines are about difficult-to-contain threats posed by JIT compilation. (JITs require non-text memory pages to be executable.) Apple doesn’t allow other apps to use such technology, so they’re consistent in that respect. Apple even disables JIT for Safari itself when you put an iPhone in lockdown mode, at no small cost to performan…

>Do you have a rebuttal to that? People should be allowed to run the software they want on a device they paid a lot of money to own. Period. https://www.justice.gov/archives/opa/media/1344546/dl?inline

That’s not the law, and never has been. Devices are combinations of hardware and software. The fact that a device maker allows you to install software subject to limitations is a privilege, not a right. Some device makers, like automobile and medical device manufacturers, often give you no such privileges at all.

Nevertheless, you’re entitled to your belief, which is really at the core of all this discussion. Fine, just say that. But to take that desire and gin up some conspiracy about how Apple is intentionally crippling the browser just to pad its apps business is a bridge too far. You don’t need a villain. Your desire is enough.

Re: iOS allows alternative browser engines in Japan

#329

Post by majorchord »

Max-Limelihood wrote: post #322
MBCook wrote: post #304

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And it’s trying to get them to run away as fast as possible. Firefox is not going to save us again. It’s arguably part of the problem in a different way.

It's amazing how you can literally start a nonprofit to code a billion-dollar browser, give it away for free, and let people modify it however they want and then HN users will still find a way to act like this is being evil and exploitative. It's as if they care more about whining than they do about their supposed open-source principles.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_equivalence

Re: iOS allows alternative browser engines in Japan

#330

Post by dagmx »

bangaladore wrote: post #315
dagmx wrote: post #211

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Which of the restrictions do you feel they don’t abide by? It looks like they meet all their own restrictions

> Use memory-safe programming languages, or features that improve memory safety within other languages, within the alternative web browser engine at a minimum for all code that processes web content; There is absolutely zero way to satisfy the latter part here. It's at best non-enforceable. If I'm using C++ and use std::span instead of a c-style array, is that good enough?

Why not? The wording is “features that improve memory safety”

It doesn’t say that it needs to provide absolute memory safety. Based on the linked WebKit guidelines, it seems like they meet the criteria.

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