I'm spoiled by Apple Silicon but still love Framework • Hacker News Board

Re: I'm spoiled by Apple Silicon but still love Framework

#321

Post by AnthonyMouse » Tue, Sep 23, 2025, 4:32 AM UTC

chongli wrote: post #315

AnthonyMouse wrote: post #314

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Linux's usual advantage of decentralization and wide distro variety with massive customization potential is a disadvantage here. How so? You need each thing to do its part, but that decentralizes perfectly well because it isn't actually integration at all, it's just a hundred different pieces each doing it right. And open source has the further advantage that you're not beholden to the maintainer. If Framework noti…

You’re right that it’s “a hundred different pieces each doing it right” but you gloss over the disadvantage of decentralization: getting everybody on board with the project. With a centralized product (such as at Apple) the CEO can say “I want to increase battery life on existing hardware by 20% before next release or you’re fired” and people will work 80 hours a week to get that done. With open source? You’ve got te…

Because it's not actually a disadvantage, because if it's actually open source no one can stop anyone else from doing it. If you or your company wants to work 80 hour weeks to improve power efficiency on Linux, you can submit patches to all the different projects where nobody else is doing the work.

And that actually happens in real life. Most of the projects care to begin with because they use their own stuff and don't want to ruin their own battery life or have a competitive disadvantage over the alternative. Then other third parties that find business value in having it work pay someone to clean up the odd stragglers when one of them didn't do it or have the resources to do it themselves.

The main problem is when some vendor both doesn't do it and is hostile to anyone else doing it.

Re: I'm spoiled by Apple Silicon but still love Framework

#322

Post by trinsic2 » Tue, Sep 23, 2025, 4:32 AM UTC

mjrpes wrote: post #218

heavyset_go wrote: post #211

Earlier quoted context omitted.

S3 sleep is a solved problem and security issues around it are solved by Secure Boot and memory and disk encryption. The issue is that firmware vendors disable S3 sleep in favor of s0ix/Modern Standby instead, which just puts hardware into low power states instead of stopping them entirely. This will inherently drain more power over time than just keeping memory powered in S3 sleep. Modern Standby requires heavy inte…

Not just laptops but affects computers too. I have a brand-new Mini PC with Windows 11 and when you turn it "off" it continues to pull 6-10 watts. Not a lot but still over a year if you were to only used it minimally that's 52-83kwh or around $25-45/year at PG&E rates. Vendors are removing support for classic standby/hibernate so the only way to go to <1 watt is to pull the plug. It shouldn't be this way.

Anybody know why their so hell bent on removing S3?

Re: I'm spoiled by Apple Silicon but still love Framework

#323

Post by devjab » Tue, Sep 23, 2025, 4:32 AM UTC

deepsun wrote: post #134

maverwa wrote: post #17

The complaint about power usage in suspend is especially sad because it’s pretty much a common problem for Linux on laptops. Not sure if that’s what applies here, but the numbers about match what I see with my Framework. Basically: if you want to use secure boot you usually also want kernel lockdown mode, and you cannot hibernate a lockdowned kernel. At least not without out-of-tree patches. IMHO that’s a giant issue…

No, Linux is not the issue -- my System76 Lemur holds 14+ hours. Haven't used X1 Carbon for a while, but it also held way longer than Framework.

As I understand it, the complaint isn't about battery life during usage. The issue compared to a mac is that I could close the lid on the macbook air m1 that I'm typing this on mid sentence, and then open the lid in two weeks, and have lost basically 0% battery.

I'm not sure if that's possible on windows. I know my work laptop doesn't work that way, but then, it probably runs all sorts of enterprise settings.

Re: I'm spoiled by Apple Silicon but still love Framework

#324

Post by devjab » Tue, Sep 23, 2025, 4:35 AM UTC

dpoloncsak wrote: post #103

BirAdam wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Excellent point with Steam Deck. The machine is proof that x86 and Linux can do it and simply don’t.

While proof, I think it also highlights the root cause of the issue. Linux is developed to be compatible with different hardware setups. SteamOS and MacOS are both (supposed to be) locked to their respective hardware. It works on that hardware, but ymmv on anything else.

I guess that's an argument for Framework to start looking into working with the software that runs on their hardware. It's not like they need to support a whole lot of options either.

Re: I'm spoiled by Apple Silicon but still love Framework

#325

Post by anonzzzies » Tue, Sep 23, 2025, 4:40 AM UTC

Implicated wrote: post #191

fizwidget wrote: post #171

Earlier quoted context omitted.

“Less than a minute” is going to feel horribly slow to people that are used to instant-resume and not having to think about shutdown vs. sleep. You might be okay with it, but I suspect most consumers today won’t be.

This, so much. I read that comment and immediately recoiled at the idea of waiting "less than a minute" to be able to do anything. I'd estimate that 1/3 of the time I even open my laptop, I'm done with what I needed in less time than that boot up sequence takes and have closed it and moved on to something else. So often I just pop it open, do/check something and close it within seconds. I go _months_ without rebootin…

...recoiled... Some people go to work, switch on their computer and turn it off when they leave. I would say most in the world do that. Sure they don't know the diff between clapping their macbook shut or switching something off, but 1 minute does not make people 'recoil'. Very strange.

Re: I'm spoiled by Apple Silicon but still love Framework

#326

Post by pachico » Tue, Sep 23, 2025, 4:45 AM UTC

I am forced to use a MacBook M4 at work but I have and love my Framework 13 Intel.

Battery management is superior in MacOS but I can leave my Framework suspended for more than at least a week (I never measured how long it can stay like this).

I run vanilla Ubuntu with TLP, though, which might be the trick.

Re: I'm spoiled by Apple Silicon but still love Framework

#327

Post by captainregex » Tue, Sep 23, 2025, 4:46 AM UTC

It’s crazy you have to go like four comments deep and into the sub convo before you find mention of windows on arm- apple silicon is just so dominant in the zeitgeist for people who think about this stuff

Re: I'm spoiled by Apple Silicon but still love Framework

#328

Post by TulliusCicero » Tue, Sep 23, 2025, 4:48 AM UTC

dpoloncsak wrote: post #103

BirAdam wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Excellent point with Steam Deck. The machine is proof that x86 and Linux can do it and simply don’t.

While proof, I think it also highlights the root cause of the issue. Linux is developed to be compatible with different hardware setups. SteamOS and MacOS are both (supposed to be) locked to their respective hardware. It works on that hardware, but ymmv on anything else.

Valve is currently working on removing that assumption for SteamOS, though.

Re: I'm spoiled by Apple Silicon but still love Framework

#329

Post by trinsic2 » Tue, Sep 23, 2025, 4:48 AM UTC

worble wrote: post #170

GZGavinZhao wrote: post #157

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are often browser tabs and other documents windows I would like to keep openers and I want to jump back to exactly where I left off as soon as possible.

Let me preface this reply with that I'm not trying to preach or tell you how to live your digital life - everyone is different and if you have setup that works for you then great, keep on trucking. That said, I worked the same way many years ago, with browser tabs and desktop sessions that were precious and I didn't want to drop them. But what I ended up realizing was that the stress of losing that state due to rando…

When I moved to Obsidian, I created a great note taking system that I use to track all my research. I didn't realize until you said this that I don't need to have my applications open any more because of this. Wow. Out of sight, out of mind I guess.

Re: I'm spoiled by Apple Silicon but still love Framework

#330

Post by trinsic2 » Tue, Sep 23, 2025, 4:52 AM UTC

heavyset_go wrote: post #221

maverwa wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thanks, I did not knew that. My understanding was that keeping the memory alive for suspend-to-idle was the main issue here. But that also might be something a vertically integrated Apple Silicon can win vs. that x86 madness there every day. And to be sure, I do not claim that there is nothing to gain in s2idle. I bet theres still a lot of headroom to safe energy. Its just that it would be easy to safe a lot of power…

Keeping memory alive is how sleep worked for over a decade and is incredibly power efficient. The issue is that Modern Standby goes ones step further and keeps the CPU and peripherals in low power states instead of just the memory. This will use more power than S3 sleep by default, and each SoC will need deep integration with the kernel for that to ever be power efficient. That means it will require heavy investment…

I dunno man Windows is pretty bad with drain in modern stand by too.