Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

We already live in social credit, we just don't call it that

thenexus.media

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

321–330 of 727 posts

Re: We already live in social credit, we just don't call it that

#321

Post by deadfoxygrandpa »

Rover222 wrote: post #199
Bukhmanizer wrote: post #92

The issue is that American media/discourse paints a very distorted view of what life under authoritarian rule is like. The truth is in many countries, unless you’re some kind of minority, politically active, or in legal trouble, day-to-day life is mostly similar to life in the west. But people don’t want to hear that, because we want to feel better than them. Like we wouldn’t tolerate that kind of life. Of course the…

This is kind of a pointless statement when you make it that broadly. Are you talking about life in North Korea or in China? And do you think American media really distorts the "other" side more than Chinese or Russian media distorts what life in the west is like?

> And do you think American media really distorts the "other" side more than Chinese or Russian media distorts what life in the west is like?

having lived for a long time in both china and america: yes. chinese people are given a much more accurate view of life in america than americans are given an accurate view of life in china

thats why there was that meme going around earlier this year when tik tok people joined rednote that said americans were shocked to learn their media was lying about how bad chinese people had it, while chinese people were shocked to learn their media was telling the truth about how bad americans had it

Re: We already live in social credit, we just don't call it that

#322

Post by lovich »

card_zero wrote: post #109
lovich wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The sketchiness of those alternative services frequently means you are in violation of the law by using them. IP law on its own for film and tv is a series of monopolies granted to pieces of content and if the owner doesn’t want to sell it to you, Pirate Bay is not a legal alternative. Regardless these arguments about whether it’s bad based on if the government is involved or not is ridiculous given how interwoven ou…

The clear delineation is the police and prisons, and courts. If the government is a corporation that happens to control the police, despite having that power it still isn't supposed to have everything all sewn up, because laws and courts and institutional resistance prevent it from doing anything it likes. This system is theoretical and supported mostly by wishing, but used to work for quite a long time. Meanwhile th…

> Meanwhile the actual corporations don't even have proper police forces and would struggle to get you put in actual prison for violating their rules.

You should visit some megacorp campuses and then rethink this view. If you actually believe it then I dare you to do something against their rules while in one of their offices and be marveled at how many people pour out of the literal walls dressed in clothing colored based on their specific job, and then tell us about how they lack police forces

Re: We already live in social credit, we just don't call it that

#323

Post by bluefirebrand »

const_cast wrote: post #274
hax0ron3 wrote: post #228

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm against extrajudicial deportations to El Salvador, but those people are not being deported for their political opinions. As for trans/LGBTQ+ genocide, it does not exist in the West.

Repeatedly denying GAC or banning PrEP as Republicans try to do every few months does indeed lead to death, yes. Granted we're not under Reagan, but Republicans are practically praying for another AIDS crisis and doing everything in their power to make it happen. Straight people largely don't know this because, well, it's not their problem.

Calling this genocide is ridiculous levels of hyperbole

This sort of nonsense is why many people do not take LGBT issues very seriously

If there was an LGBT genocide happening in America, there would not be open pride celebrations, come on

Re: We already live in social credit, we just don't call it that

#324

Post by account42 »

otterley wrote: post #35
wvenable wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can always move to new town and start again. The problem with all these social credit systems is that they're designed to follow you wherever you go forever. There is also zero recourse if a mistake was made; at least you can try and smooth things over with a bartender.

> You can always move to new town and start again. Contra: "Wherever you go, there you are." (i.e., you don't stop being an asshole just because you move.)

Being an "asshole" is often subjective so no, it does not apply equally wherever you go.

Re: We already live in social credit, we just don't call it that

#325

Post by account42 »

potato3732842 wrote: post #212
Swenrekcah wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The larger problem is that the owner of the credit scheme, whether a corporation or a government, can use it to punish people and depending on the scheme effectively making people social outcasts, without any due process.

Due process isn't some silver bullet. Jim crow, witch trials, they all followed due process. But yeah it's better than some capricious bureaucrat just pulling decisions out their ass with no serious recourse, except all those cases there the process is just that.

And your locks aren't perfectly secure so you may as well hand me the keys.

Re: We already live in social credit, we just don't call it that

#326

Post by deadfoxygrandpa »

rootsudo wrote: post #280

"The only difference between your phone and China's social credit system is that China tells you what they're doing. We pretend our algorithmic reputation scores are just “user experience features.” At least Beijing admits they're gamifying human behavior." I've said this before in many ways to other Americans and they just join the very vocal "china bad, usa good, you're weird for liking china" while then wondering…

i think that's actually a weak part of the article. she goes on to clarify that china's social credit system doesn't even really exist. so it would have been better to say it like this:

"the only difference between your phone and china's social credit system is that your phone is real"

Re: We already live in social credit, we just don't call it that

#327

Post by potato3732842 »

Swenrekcah wrote: post #243
potato3732842 wrote: post #212

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Due process isn't some silver bullet. Jim crow, witch trials, they all followed due process. But yeah it's better than some capricious bureaucrat just pulling decisions out their ass with no serious recourse, except all those cases there the process is just that.

Nothing in the world is perfect. Breathing and eating are no silver bullets for staying alive because sometimes people choke on their food and they could also breath toxic fumes. Still it's a pretty solid choice to keep doing both.

My point is that due process is tangential to fairness or reasonableness.

Re: We already live in social credit, we just don't call it that

#328

Post by eadmund »

> The only difference between your phone and China's social credit system is that China tells you what they're doing.

And that I have a choice of phones, or even no phone at all, and none of my phone options is legally permitted to execute me.

Further down, the article argues that switching costs between private companies are ‘enormous.’ I don’t know if they are that large, but however painful it is to switch from Apple to Google, it’s orders of magnitude easier than moving between nation-states.

It notes that private systems ‘increasingly collaborate.’ Sure, and that can be a problem. But there’s a huge difference between a patchwork of systems which collaborate and a pervasive, inescapable State.

Finally, it notes that governments purchase private data. Sure, but are they using that data to restrict fundamental freedoms? They may be (Canada’s restriction of economic rights for folks who donated to protesters comes to mind — although I don’t think that was actually enabled by purchasing private ‘social credit’ data).

> Utah's House passed a law banning social credit systems, despite none existing in America.

Does the article contend that Americans live in a social credit system, or that none exists in America? It can’t have it both ways!

Finally, the article leads with a definition of ‘social credit’ as evolving beyond an original definition of ‘distributing industry profits to consumers to increase purchasing power.’ Whatever that might mean, it seems completely irrelevant to the meaning of the phrase under discussion, as relevant as mentioning in a discussion on O.J. Simpson that ‘O.J.’ can mean ‘orange juice’ (in Mr. Simpson’s case, it stood for ‘Orenthal James.’

Re: We already live in social credit, we just don't call it that

#329

Post by mr_toad »

Bukhmanizer wrote: post #92

The issue is that American media/discourse paints a very distorted view of what life under authoritarian rule is like. The truth is in many countries, unless you’re some kind of minority, politically active, or in legal trouble, day-to-day life is mostly similar to life in the west. But people don’t want to hear that, because we want to feel better than them. Like we wouldn’t tolerate that kind of life. Of course the…

Authoritarian governments wield their economy as a tool for political power, which affects everyone living there.

Re: We already live in social credit, we just don't call it that

#330

Post by coldtea »

mattnewton wrote: post #178
Bukhmanizer wrote: post #92

The issue is that American media/discourse paints a very distorted view of what life under authoritarian rule is like. The truth is in many countries, unless you’re some kind of minority, politically active, or in legal trouble, day-to-day life is mostly similar to life in the west. But people don’t want to hear that, because we want to feel better than them. Like we wouldn’t tolerate that kind of life. Of course the…

> unless you’re some kind of minority, politically active, or in legal trouble, day-to-day life is mostly similar to life in the west Okay but that is exactly why I would prefer a western liberal government. It is better and that is ideal is worth criticizing authoritarians for, and fighting to keep in the west.

In certain things it can be better.

Singapore might be a state run authoritatively with the same party in power for 60 years, but you're free to walk around at any time without fear of any crime happening to you. Or public projects that "just work" where in the "western liberal" case their deteriorate or are tied up in bureucracy.

And life if "you’re some kind of minority, politically active, or in legal trouble" is not roses in the west either. From murder by police (e.g. "walking while black") to having stuffed being pinned on you because you're a union activist or for civil rights, etc.

And that's not "now with Trump". That was the case under Obama, Bush, Clinton, all the way to McCarthy, and even all the way after and before the Civil War.

Post reply on HN