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We already live in social credit, we just don't call it that

thenexus.media

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Re: We already live in social credit, we just don't call it that

#31

Post by pharrington »

NitpickLawyer wrote: post #2

Interesting article. On the one hand, it provides insides into how the project actually worked in china, which I didn't know. That's interesting. But it misses a huge nuance on the whole "dystopian" thing. The main thing about "social score bad" takes is that the government will use that scoring. It's not private private. Everything the author mentions about the various scoring in the US (and EU for that matter, alth…

As others have noted, the bad thing about social credit is that any one particular institution does it - its that the social credit is mandated by unaccountable entities with lopsided amounts of power. It doesn't matter if its a government that's doing it, or a company, or a cabal of companies, or even if it was literally a single person - the undue coercion is the problem.

Re: We already live in social credit, we just don't call it that

#32

Post by drnick1 »

encom wrote: post #20

>Open your phone right now and count the apps that are scoring your behavior. Zero. Are everyone really that terminally online? I reject most things that use an app. Yesterday I encountered a coffee vending machine that required an app. I walked away. Uncle Ted was right.

Agreed. I categorically refuse to install non-FOSS apps on my phone. I don't use social media, and refuse to use Uber for various reasons (including those explained in this article). I do buy things on Amazon, but only those that are physically delivered to my door (rather than "subscriptions" aka buying things that you won't own).

Re: We already live in social credit, we just don't call it that

#33

Post by wvenable »

gruez wrote: post #29

There was a comment that appeared for a few minutes before getting deleted, that vaguely lined up with what I wanted to say. It didn't reappear, so I'll just repost it: >real life also has social credit. were you an asshole to the bartender last week? that goes to your reputation at that bar. did you volunteer with a local non-profit? that goes to your reputation with that organization. even without an algorithm, peo…

You can always move to new town and start again. The problem with all these social credit systems is that they're designed to follow you wherever you go forever. There is also zero recourse if a mistake was made; at least you can try and smooth things over with a bartender.

Re: We already live in social credit, we just don't call it that

#34

Post by nine_k »

drnick1 wrote: post #17

The real problem here is privacy and anonymity. These discrete "rating systems" used by various companies aren't particularly dangerous as long as they cannot identify users by some common identifier such as name, DOB or address. Got banned by Uber or Amazon? Just create a new account.

Both Uber and Amazon accounts involve payment methods and typical delivery / pickup addresses. All these, combined or separately, can be used as a proxy of "the same person" notion.

Well, delivery addresses can be somehow anonymized by the use of PO boxes; names on credit cards, not so much.

Re: We already live in social credit, we just don't call it that

#35

Post by otterley »

wvenable wrote: post #33
gruez wrote: post #29

There was a comment that appeared for a few minutes before getting deleted, that vaguely lined up with what I wanted to say. It didn't reappear, so I'll just repost it: >real life also has social credit. were you an asshole to the bartender last week? that goes to your reputation at that bar. did you volunteer with a local non-profit? that goes to your reputation with that organization. even without an algorithm, peo…

You can always move to new town and start again. The problem with all these social credit systems is that they're designed to follow you wherever you go forever. There is also zero recourse if a mistake was made; at least you can try and smooth things over with a bartender.

> You can always move to new town and start again.

Contra: "Wherever you go, there you are." (i.e., you don't stop being an asshole just because you move.)

Re: We already live in social credit, we just don't call it that

#36

Post by inetknght »

gruez wrote: post #14
exabrial wrote: post #9

Why do you think sms "2fa" is suddenly so popular with banks and other fintechs, despite things like passkeys and u2f, you know things that _actually_ prevent people from breaking into accounts, have existed forever?

Any business vaguely money related knows exactly who you are because of KYC requirements. They don't need to ask for you phone number when they already have your full name, address, birthday, and SSN.

> Any business vaguely money related knows exactly who you are because of KYC requirements.

They also will happily give your money to any thief pretending to be you, and then blame you for their mistake.

Re: We already live in social credit, we just don't call it that

#37

Post by dec0dedab0de »

mahmoudhossam wrote: post #25
sealeck wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Try convincing your customers to all get a YubiKey... it's not fun. The majority of internet users are able to read an SMS on their phone and copy a code, however.

HSBC used to distribute hardware keys to its retail customers just a few years ago

I had a hardware token for paypal 20 years ago

Re: We already live in social credit, we just don't call it that

#38

Post by supportengineer »

mahmoudhossam wrote: post #25
sealeck wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Try convincing your customers to all get a YubiKey... it's not fun. The majority of internet users are able to read an SMS on their phone and copy a code, however.

HSBC used to distribute hardware keys to its retail customers just a few years ago

These keys eventually stop working, need a new battery, etc. Instead of the onus being on the customer to "pull" a new one of these keys, it would be better if you "push" them ( mail a new one proactively every January 1st, give a $20 one-time service credit for activating it, and $5 a month credit for continuing to use it )

Re: We already live in social credit, we just don't call it that

#39

Post by boznz »

drnick1 wrote: post #17

The real problem here is privacy and anonymity. These discrete "rating systems" used by various companies aren't particularly dangerous as long as they cannot identify users by some common identifier such as name, DOB or address. Got banned by Uber or Amazon? Just create a new account.

>Got banned by Uber or Amazon? Just create a new account.

use the same phone number, email address or credit card and they know you are the same person, use the same wifi spot or IP address with the same behaviour and they can intimate you are the same.. Even badly written data analysis can do this and a VPN from another country and different username wont convince any system with an ounce of sense.

Re: We already live in social credit, we just don't call it that

#40

Post by lovich »

wvenable wrote: post #33
gruez wrote: post #29

There was a comment that appeared for a few minutes before getting deleted, that vaguely lined up with what I wanted to say. It didn't reappear, so I'll just repost it: >real life also has social credit. were you an asshole to the bartender last week? that goes to your reputation at that bar. did you volunteer with a local non-profit? that goes to your reputation with that organization. even without an algorithm, peo…

You can always move to new town and start again. The problem with all these social credit systems is that they're designed to follow you wherever you go forever. There is also zero recourse if a mistake was made; at least you can try and smooth things over with a bartender.

The following you everywhere is a major problem with these systems imo, mostly because it removed the equivalent of bankruptcy for your reputation.

If you had to move across the country to leave your bad name behind, you used to be able to. And just like bankruptcy you’d start with nothing so it wasn’t exactly easy but it was at least an option. Now what recourse do people have?

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