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We should have the ability to run any code we want on hardware we own

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Re: We should have the ability to run any code we want on hardware we own

#321

Post by argomo »

makeitdouble wrote: post #229
throwaway31131 wrote: post #192

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> To push further, Google and Apple have basically as much power as the US. If this is true then why is Tim Cook visiting Trump? Shouldn’t it be the other way around.

The power dynamic between the gifter and the giftee isn't that simple. Even bribes dynamics will change a lot depending on who does it and to which amount. There is a whole antropologic field around that, but to keep it short, if you pay your palace and all expenses with the money funneled to you as gifts, you're not the one in control. Fun read: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gift_economy

CGP Grey's "The Rules for Rulers" (on YouTube) may also be relevant here.

Re: We should have the ability to run any code we want on hardware we own

#322

Post by p0w3n3d »

zmmmmm wrote: post #165

> In this context this would mean having the ability and documentation to build or install alternative operating systems on this hardware It doesn't work. Everything from banks to Netflix and others are slowly edging out anything where they can't fully verify the chain of control to an entity they can have a legal or contractual relationship with. To be clear, this is fundamental, not incidental. You can't run your o…

I agree with your point. And meanwhile in Korea (according to article I've read) to use any bank's website you have to install a spy software in your PC. It looks like every major service vendor is organising a crawling subversion against their users and they really count we won't notice.

One of the articles: https://palant.info/2023/01/02/south-koreas-online-security-...

Re: We should have the ability to run any code we want on hardware we own

#323

Post by beeflet »

vbezhenar wrote: post #275
idle_zealot wrote: post #4

This makes the point that the real battle we should be fighting is not for control of Android/iOS, but the ability to run other operating systems on phones. That would be great, but as the author acknowledges, building those alternatives is basically impossible. Even assuming that building a solid alternative is feasible, though, I don't think their point stands. Generally I'm not keen on legislatively forcing a deve…

> ability to run other operating systems on phones > building those alternatives is basically impossible For smart people it is not impossible. Just few years ago, few folks wrote complicated drivers for completely closed hardware, and I'm talking about M1 Macbook. Google Pixel, on the other hand, was pretty open until very recently. I might be wrong about specifics, but I'm pretty sure that most of software was open…

With the right trusted computing modules, it will be impossible. As far as I am concerned, the asahi developers are building on a foundation of sand because Apple could just lock down the bootloader for the iMac laptops or whatever next generation

Re: We should have the ability to run any code we want on hardware we own

#324

Post by b_e_n_t_o_n »

School-Cotton wrote: post #314
b_e_n_t_o_n wrote: post #286

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So what? Should security features be illegal so people can more easily run their own OS's on phones?

Well no. I agree with your overall point in that I don’t really think vendors should be forced to allow you to install whatever software you want. I’m just pointing out that the way you described the current situation is inaccurate.

Ah ok my bad.

Re: We should have the ability to run any code we want on hardware we own

#325

Post by fluoridation »

divan wrote: post #31

> It should be possible to run Android on an iPhone and manufacturers should be required by law to provide enough technical support and documentation to make the development of new operating systems possible As someone who enjoyed Linux phones like the Nokia N900/950 and would love to see those hacker-spirited devices again, statements like this sound more than naïve to me. I can acknowledge my own interests here (ha…

>I also don’t see Apple or Google as merely companies that assemble parts and selling us "hardware". The decades when hardware and software were two disconnected worlds are gone.

That when you buy a phone you're also buying software components doesn't change the fact that the phone is owned entirely by you. You're not entering into a partnership to co-own the phone with anyone else, it's entirely yours. No one should get to decide how you use it but you.

>But we’re not buying pans anymore — we’re buying airplanes that also happen to serve food.

So the argument is that by taking a piece of electronics I paid for that is running on electricity I pay for, and making it run some arbitrary piece of software, I'm putting people's lives at risk?

Re: We should have the ability to run any code we want on hardware we own

#326

Post by cryptonector »

zmmmmm wrote: post #165

> In this context this would mean having the ability and documentation to build or install alternative operating systems on this hardware It doesn't work. Everything from banks to Netflix and others are slowly edging out anything where they can't fully verify the chain of control to an entity they can have a legal or contractual relationship with. To be clear, this is fundamental, not incidental. You can't run your o…

There is also the possibility that without a [paid] curator (the vendor, like Google or Apple) we can't have security for how do we ascertain provenance? You might not buy that argument, but the vendor will make it, and it will resonate with the public and/or the politicians.

Establishing trust with hardware, firmware, and operating system software is currently an intractable problem. Besides the halting problem and the reflections on trusting trust problem (i.e., supply chain problems) the sheer size of these codebases and object code (since you'll need to confirm that the object code is not altered as in the reflections on trusting trust paper) is just too big for the public to be able to understand it. Sure, maybe we could use AI to review all of this, but... that's expensive if every person has to do it, and... that's got a bootstrapping problem.

Basically the walled garden is unlikely to go away anytime soon. It would be easier to change the rules politically to do things like reduce transaction fees, but truly allowing the wide public to run anything they want seems difficult not just politically but technically, because the technical problems will lead to political ones.

Re: We should have the ability to run any code we want on hardware we own

#327

Post by seany »

danpalmer wrote: post #66
Liftyee wrote: post #61

As other comments have pointed out, this statement (one I 100% support, BTW) is a little naive. I can see how it might be unreasonable to expect companies to publish documentation, build infrastructure, etc. to support running your own code on the hardware you own (which 99% of people will never need to do). However, I strongly believe that - should one choose to do so - you should not be stopped from jailbreaking, c…

> Companies aren't obligated to support me doing this Where does one draw the line on support? If I jailbreak an iPhone, should I still get Apple customer support for the apps on it, even though they may have been manipulated by some aspect of the jailbreak? (Very real problem, easy to cause crashes in other apps when you mess around with root access) Should I still get a battery replacement within warranty from Appl…

It's up to the manufacturer to prove that the software modification had a material impact on the issue being covered. Yes that's expensive, yes that's the point.

Re: We should have the ability to run any code we want on hardware we own

#328

Post by tonyhart7 »

hdgvhicv wrote: post #313
tonyhart7 wrote: post #293

Earlier quoted context omitted.

well no one to force you to do banking from smartphones You can do manually like the old days, EXPLICTLY ALLOWING NON GOOGLE/APPLE to do banking in their own mobile phone meaning THERE ARE MILLIONS OF USERS that can fall victim to scammer+cracker how cant you see all of that???? ITS JUST NOT ABOUT YOU edit: please educate first, y'all need to know differences between mobile banking and internet banking You can downvo…

My bank lets me do everything just fine on Firefox/linux.

its not mobile banking if you use browser

its just browser/internet banking

also mobile banking has much more capabilites in forms of app than just "web page"

Re: We should have the ability to run any code we want on hardware we own

#329

Post by beeflet »

AtlasBarfed wrote: post #74
idle_zealot wrote: post #4

This makes the point that the real battle we should be fighting is not for control of Android/iOS, but the ability to run other operating systems on phones. That would be great, but as the author acknowledges, building those alternatives is basically impossible. Even assuming that building a solid alternative is feasible, though, I don't think their point stands. Generally I'm not keen on legislatively forcing a deve…

This is one of the real canaries I watch on "real AI" for programming. It should be able to make an OS. It should be able to write drivers. It should be able to port code to new platforms. It should be able to transpile compiled binaries (which are just languages of a different language) across architectures. Sure seems we are very far from that, but really these are breadth-based knowledge with extensive examples /…

>It should be able to make an OS. It should be able to write drivers.

How is it going to do that without testing (and potentially bricking) hardware in real life?

>It should be able to transpile compiled binaries (which are just languages of a different language) across architectures

I don't know why you would use an LLM to do that. Couldn't you just distribute the binaries in some intermediate format, or decompile them to a comprehensible source format first?

Re: We should have the ability to run any code we want on hardware we own

#330

Post by tonyhart7 »

onion2k wrote: post #306
tonyhart7 wrote: post #293

Earlier quoted context omitted.

well no one to force you to do banking from smartphones You can do manually like the old days, EXPLICTLY ALLOWING NON GOOGLE/APPLE to do banking in their own mobile phone meaning THERE ARE MILLIONS OF USERS that can fall victim to scammer+cracker how cant you see all of that???? ITS JUST NOT ABOUT YOU edit: please educate first, y'all need to know differences between mobile banking and internet banking You can downvo…

Locking down a website to only be available to users on Apple and Windows doesn't make it safer. It just reduces the cost of building it because you don't have to bother testing it on any other platforms. Rather than tell users "Danger, we haven't tested your choice of OS" companies prefer to lock it down. Users on Apple and Windows are not safer because a bank has chosen to block Linux.

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