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Rick Falkvinge: Why free speech is harmed by the ban on child porn

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Re: Rick Falkvinge: Why free speech is harmed by the ban on child porn

#321
post #319

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If that became a problem, the U.S. could simply eliminate copyright protection for child pornography. Thai producers could not turn a profit when faced with Mountain View pirates.

Im pretty sure possession of child porn is illegal. You don't need to mess with copyright protection at all. And widespread piracy doesn't stop the commercial enterprises, after all, Hollywood is the most pirated and massively profitable

There is virtually no piracy of Hollywood movies, at least in the U.S., thanks to their strenuous enforcement of copyright. If piracy were rampant, you could buy the latest blockbuster for $0.50 at Wal-Mart on opening day. (Hint: the actual price is jacked up one or two orders of magnitude by the MPAA's jack booted thugs.)

Re: Rick Falkvinge: Why free speech is harmed by the ban on child porn

#322
post #157

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Who is harmed by "virtual child porn"?

We wouldn't know what "virtual child porn" could/would be based on (real children depicted in virtual fantasies, pictures of real child abuse etc.). I know virtual child porn is often a reference to unrealistically drawn lolicon material. But what causes much more controversy is realistic material (3D, photorealistic).

The realistic, 3D stuff is a problem. A BIG problem. Not only because it could likely mean a real child was used in the creation but also because anybody who looks at THAT kind of shit is without a doubt, a pedophile.

Re: Rick Falkvinge: Why free speech is harmed by the ban on child porn

#323
post #214

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>>> Did you even read the article? Not everything that would be called child pornography in court is molestation of prepubescent children. One of the main points of the article is that it might be consensual sex between, say, two sixteen year olds. Or it could be kids putting it online themselves (remember Jessi Slaughter?). Yes, I did and I was talking about the specific kind of pornography these laws were trying to…

> ... as well including the fact that it isn't a victimless crime I feel like it still is. No child is directly harmed. There are indubitably indirect consequences, but those are unknown and irrelevant. If you search far enough, no crime is victimless. For a less offensive metaphor, consider drug use. I have no doubt that if marijuana is legalized, people will die because of the actions of inebriated persons. However…

I think you're right. My original argument was that when you step inside the mind of someone who does something like this and examine their motives, then you come up with a series of whys. Why are they doing it? Why not just rape/molest the child in private behind closed doors? Clearly there won't be any photographic evidence lying around of their acts in that particular case making the prosecution's case weaker. A part of the reason why they do it because they have a need to perform and every performer needs an audience.

Given how controversial the subject matter is it might seem that I'm making a blanket statement to further my own objectives, but this is more of an observation rather than a conclusion. Why they do it is unclear and up for debate, but the fact that they are doing it isn't. The scenarios you have mentioned did not have this component in them. In those cases the harm is a probabilistic function requiring several requisite conditions to be completed. (someone has to be driving, the speed must be high and so on) A series of things must go wrong and the probability of occurrence isn't 1. On the other hand over here someone must be hurt and I assumed that there must be a psychological feedback mechanism which kicked in for the rapist when people consumed the said matter. That's why I thought it was more reasonable to assert that there is a function of the viewer in the crime itself and that it was a part of the motivations behind the crime.

However what I had forgotten was that correlation does not imply causation and all of this is orthogonal to the actual crime itself. Therefore, I was wrong and you were right. Possession is indeed a victimless crime.

Now we have that fact settled it is indeed an open question where there will be net good or net harm given legalisation or ban. That's a rather difficult question to answer and I do not have the skills or the understanding to broach upon it. However, I think that over here the answer isn't as simple complete legalisation or ban, but rather some X thing in combination with more sophisticated enforcement to catch the perpetrators.

>>> Anders Breivik no doubt enjoyed the media attention and I didn't hear voices calling for his manifesto to become illegal to spread.Again that's a completely orthogonal incident to what is being discussed. The two cases are radically different and have no common ground.

Re: Rick Falkvinge: Why free speech is harmed by the ban on child porn

#324

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Naughty troll, back to your hole. I hope you find something productive to do with your time.

I genuinely care about people being wrongfully accused. Does it shock you?

So you think that because some people are falsely accused - that the law is fallible - that it should be absolutely allowed for children to be exploited for the sake of others sexual titillation; give me a break.

Re: Rick Falkvinge: Why free speech is harmed by the ban on child porn

#325

There's a lot of food for thought here, and important points. But in one area, the author completely glosses over a crucial distinction: > why is it only documentation of sex crimes against minors that are being banned in this way? The lawmen are perfectly fine with a video documenting how a teenager is being stabbed with a screwdriver in both eyes, then murdered. ... why is the ban just related to anything sexual, a…

This links into his 'follow the money' theory. If people were doing this, you find out who is earning money from doing the abuse, and you jail them. Same with those who are funding it.

People who download music for free on pirating sites aren't supporting the music industry. So I don't see how people who simply receive the data (or even send it free) are supporting it.

Flooding the 'market' with free information saturates it to the point where people would not want to pay money for it. Or if they did, the amount they'd want to pay would be so low that it would decrease incentive for people to offend for purely monetary reasons.

People who would offend for non-monetary reasons would do so anyway, and legalizing the material would aid in tracking down the distribution network to patient 0.

Re: Rick Falkvinge: Why free speech is harmed by the ban on child porn

#326

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ah, your age of majority isn't 16? Only five countries in the world have the age of majority at 16. The vast majority set it at 18 or older. From a cursory look at the lists, most countries set their age of consent lower than their age of majority. Whilst it would be consistent to change both laws that doesn't make it any the less inconsistent to specifically alter your laws to allow for relay of erotic images for th…

> Laws don't actually allow or disallow anything; they create incentives do perform certain behaviors. // That's just being linguistically obtuse. One can still do something that is not "allowed" by the law. In your terms though the law is "disincentivizing" the relay of erotic images between minors. Why? Well I'd posit that maturer members of the community see that having naked sexually posed images of oneself avail…

>"having naked sexually posed images of oneself available online is not especially helpful to the individual and may lead to negative attention, bullying, abuse and such. Making such actions illegal is saying that they are outside of the behaviour expected as morally normative."

So, behaving in an abnormal fashion that others label immoral... resulting in people targeting that person with abusive bullying...

Would this also reply to things like coming out of the closet as a homosexual, being a vegetarian, a pacifist, a male cheerleader, etc?

After all, we can't have children being bullied for being different, so we should criminalize it, or barring that, criminalize expressing that difference.

Re: Rick Falkvinge: Why free speech is harmed by the ban on child porn

#327

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Isn't the easy answer virtual child porn? I really see no reason why this is also illegal except it makes people feel icky. This allows potential rapists to satisfy their desires without harming any actual children.

Virtual Child Porn is not illegal(in America) but obscene material is. Obscenity charges are rare and would only apply to hardcore porn if someone ever is brought up on such charges. They are a hard sell so it's not really perused by law enforcement. There is nothing wrong with it. If VCP was to be made illegal, violent video games should be made illegal too. America should follow Finland's footsteps and not makes la…

Why do you try to fill people with a false sense of security Akemi? How do we know obscenity charges are rare? Why should we think it would only apply to 'hardcore' porn?

http://journal.neilgaiman.com/2008/12/why-defend-freedom-of-...

Perhaps you'd have people believe that Christopher Handley's circumstances are rare, but perhaps they're but a minority of what we manage to see publicized for what it is.

Obscenity laws are seriously problem, a cudgel that can be wielded ruthlessly, and people cow in fear to it as Handley did. It must be confronted.

Re: Rick Falkvinge: Why free speech is harmed by the ban on child porn

#328

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We wouldn't know what "virtual child porn" could/would be based on (real children depicted in virtual fantasies, pictures of real child abuse etc.). I know virtual child porn is often a reference to unrealistically drawn lolicon material. But what causes much more controversy is realistic material (3D, photorealistic).

The realistic, 3D stuff is a problem. A BIG problem. Not only because it could likely mean a real child was used in the creation but also because anybody who looks at THAT kind of shit is without a doubt, a pedophile.

I don't agree with the assertion. Looking at something does not automatically determine that the observer holds some kind of specific psychological condition.

Or are you saying that anyone who dares to click the screwdriver link is a sadist who gets off on people being blinded by metal implements?

People can simply look at things out of curiosity, to see what it is, see how they react to it, to fathom why whoever made it made it. Then to wonder how others react to it, and why they might seek it.

Having trounced your latter argument, let's get to the first: the problem with 'omg a real child might've been inspired this!' is that could apply to ANYTHING. As in, I can't read a novel where someone gets murdered, because maybe it's based on a real murder.

People can just as easily chibi-style 2D art of a rape as they can make a 3D simultation of it. I believe there are actually certain doujin manga whose plot revolve around that concept. Heck you could make a lego depiction of rape, better outlaw looking at controversial lego sculptures too.

Re: Rick Falkvinge: Why free speech is harmed by the ban on child porn

#329
post #157

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Who is harmed by "virtual child porn"?

Not the virtual children, certainly. Possibly the viewers, IF (research needed) giving them the ability to watch detailed scenarios of abuse -- possibly with willing "children" -- raises the possibility that they'll abuse a real child and ruin both the child's life and their own. That's an important "if"; I don't know the answer, but I will at least say it's a bit sad we don't have more people calling for research on…

"giving them the ability to watch detailed scenarios of abuse"

You mean like what the police who investigate real tapes have?

This 'raises the possibility' thing is a bad slippery slope. Let's argue that playing GTA raises the possibility people will steal cars.

This ruins the lives of the car thieves and the people whose cars are stolen! We must avoid that possibility!

Re: Rick Falkvinge: Why free speech is harmed by the ban on child porn

#330
post #296

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I guess by now we are so desensitised to murder and violence by watching action movies and playing video games that it became normal activity for us?

I'm not sure you can compare a sexual attraction with murder.

We can compare anything ;)
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