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Rick Falkvinge: Why free speech is harmed by the ban on child porn

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Re: Rick Falkvinge: Why free speech is harmed by the ban on child porn

#291

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So are you saying that no one is ever harmed physically or emotionally when kidde porn is made? The opposite is actually true. Not necessarily. Exactly what is kiddie porn? For starters, if someone uses a hidden camera to photograph or videotape a kid taking a bath, then that can't possibly cause any physical or emotional harm to the kid, because the camera does not physically act on the kid in any observable way, an…

We ban purchasing of ivory to avoid the poaching of elephants. SO yes, indirectly, the child-porn industry encourages, heck even pays for the brutal raping of children. Apologists cannot explain that away.

We ban purchasing of ivory to avoid the poaching of elephants.

I am opposed to that. I could supply libertarian moral arguments, which would probably not convince you; or I could supply arguments as to how that would cause the (black market) price of ivory to be really high, and would give poachers who are "feeling lucky" (willing to disobey the law and risk getting caught) even more incentive to poach the remaining elephants, which might convince you; I could draw analogies with the black markets for illegal drugs, and the story of alcohol prohibition in the United States[1], which might convince you; I could look for and might find academic studies of, like, ivory poaching rates before and after it was illegalized, concluding that the laws did cause an increase in poaching, which might convince you; and I could make a general comment that any moral system that concludes that possession of a thing deserves absolutely draconian punishments, but then, after observing some empirical arguments like the above, concludes that the thing should be legal, is a hopelessly broken moral system (which is why I arrived at my position), which probably wouldn't convince you but would make me feel better.

I could also point out that, in this particular case (I remember reading this argument somewhere), if unrestricted copying puts musicians and writers and movie makers and other producers out of business, then it should have the same effect on child pornographers, and so you should be advocating for the FBI to put child pornography on the Pirate Bay and to devote taxpayer dollars to seeding the torrents.

By the way, notice the structure of this debate. The parent post and the great-grandparent post did not attack my counter-arguments; each brought in a completely new line of attack. ("Consuming it is bad, possession should be illegal for the safety of society"; then "Producing it harms children, so the producers should be punished"; then "Encouraging the producers is bad, and possession tends to mean buying or otherwise encouraging, so possession should be made illegal so the producers make less money".) If I was arguing with one person, I'd have to conclude he was schizophrenic. I suppose it's possible for there to be three independent approaches to... not exactly the same conclusions... but this certainly isn't evidence that there is a definitely correct, defendable argument for why child pornography should be illegal.

[1] This is another case where I believe the "the original driving force behind all laws is anti-social intent" hypothesis holds up. I don't have specific sources in mind, but I believe moonshiners supported anti-alcohol laws to restrict their competition (they were prepared to break the law, their competition wasn't).

Re: Rick Falkvinge: Why free speech is harmed by the ban on child porn

#292

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Shock video sites that feature murders, dismemberment and other forms of crime on video for voyeuristic pleasure are a pretty big business. Perhaps not as big as child pornography woud be/is, but big enough that your distinction is a bit questionable. Further, videos of people getting murdered raise enough of an outcry that they get investigated/prosecuted much harder. Instances of child molestation are hidden, so th…

I almost commented about this... but then I realize I had no evidence whatsoever for any of those claims. Do you? http://www.snopes.com/horrors/madmen/snuff.asp

I'm not talking about snuff. I'm talking about reddit, 4chan and the like that regularly have videos of people dying or being murdered. They aren't snuff, as the murders were not motivated by having the video of it. I am just talking security cameras, bystanders, etc that are really popular. Im talking about news shows that have "shocking footage of a crime".

When it is children being raped, there is no equvalent, as that would be distributing child pornography.

Re: Rick Falkvinge: Why free speech is harmed by the ban on child porn

#293

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We ban purchasing of ivory to avoid the poaching of elephants. SO yes, indirectly, the child-porn industry encourages, heck even pays for the brutal raping of children. Apologists cannot explain that away.

We ban purchasing of ivory to avoid the poaching of elephants. I am opposed to that. I could supply libertarian moral arguments, which would probably not convince you; or I could supply arguments as to how that would cause the (black market) price of ivory to be really high, and would give poachers who are "feeling lucky" (willing to disobey the law and risk getting caught) even more incentive to poach the remaining…

I had hoped to attack your counterargument that went as follows: Furthermore, even in the brutal-rape case, the child is not harmed when a third party makes copies of the video.

The harm is indirect, but caused by the market for said video.

Also, the owning of the object e.g. ivory is not illegal; the selling is illegal, right? So a little off the mark there.

Re: Rick Falkvinge: Why free speech is harmed by the ban on child porn

#294

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We ban purchasing of ivory to avoid the poaching of elephants. I am opposed to that. I could supply libertarian moral arguments, which would probably not convince you; or I could supply arguments as to how that would cause the (black market) price of ivory to be really high, and would give poachers who are "feeling lucky" (willing to disobey the law and risk getting caught) even more incentive to poach the remaining…

I had hoped to attack your counterargument that went as follows: Furthermore, even in the brutal-rape case, the child is not harmed when a third party makes copies of the video. The harm is indirect, but caused by the market for said video. Also, the owning of the object e.g. ivory is not illegal; the selling is illegal, right? So a little off the mark there.

Thank you for the civil reply.

The harm is indirect, but caused by the market for said video.

So... how about cases where someone just downloads a copy off the internet for free (and I mean absolutely free, not a quid-pro-quo exchange--a complete stranger downloads the video and has no further interactions with the provider)? Or when someone posts a copy for free download by complete strangers on the internet? That seems to bring no benefit whatsoever to the initial producer. (It's possible that the video or picture could come with "Made by , send donations here" or something, but I'm sure that's not the case most of the time.) Would you be in favor of legalizing free online distribution of unattributed child pornography, then? If so, please recognize that this is at odds with existing laws (although your position would at least be self-consistent). If not, please explain yourself.

Also, the owning of the object e.g. ivory is not illegal; the selling is illegal, right? So a little off the mark there.

I see, you're right. But the effects--ruling out legal producers as competition, and raising the price on the black market--are still the same kind, just probably less pronounced and less likely to catch civilians in the crossfire. And, again, it seems to mean that your argument doesn't support the criminalization of possessing or freely distributing child porn. (Also, no objections to child porn whose production demonstrably caused no harm to the child? Perhaps you'd even assent to "the burden of proof is on the prosecutor to establish that a child was harmed", rather than "the burden of proof is on the producer to establish there was no harm".)

Re: Rick Falkvinge: Why free speech is harmed by the ban on child porn

#296
post #224

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Except the concern isn't about satiating the pedophile's need; it's about the pedophile becoming desensitized and eventually normalized to the thought of having sex with a child. They experience "loli" or virtual children, and that would be the gateway to real ones. If you're talking about a trained psychologist prescribing the material to a pedophile, that would be fine, but the vibe I'm getting from this discussion…

I guess by now we are so desensitised to murder and violence by watching action movies and playing video games that it became normal activity for us?

I'm not sure you can compare a sexual attraction with murder.

Re: Rick Falkvinge: Why free speech is harmed by the ban on child porn

#297
post #253

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I'd go so far as to call your hypothetical example completely laughable. Laughable? It's already happening. I should be able to gather child pornography from across the Internet, match it to photos (school pictures, Facebook, etc.), and report the hits to the police. But it's illegal. Like all crimes of moral purity, it is not about rescuing the victims or punishing the wicked. It is a PR stunt by and for the witch…

I suspect one reason why thats illegal is because it would be an easy way for Aaron pedophile to use it as an excuse. More bad guys would use that excuse to avoid justice than good guys.

In other words, you believe that "justice" for distasteful pictures is equivalent to preventing forcible rape of children. And since we can so easily redirect the prevention budget to pictures ...

Re: Rick Falkvinge: Why free speech is harmed by the ban on child porn

#298

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ah, your age of majority isn't 16? Re the false dilemma claim, I didn't present it as an only option; changing both laws is, like you say, consistent and was in mind when I made the argument I did. Whilst it would be consistent to change both laws that doesn't make it any the less inconsistent to specifically alter your laws to allow for relay of erotic images for those considered to be under the age of sexual maturi…

Ah, your age of majority isn't 16? Only five countries in the world have the age of majority at 16. The vast majority set it at 18 or older. From a cursory look at the lists, most countries set their age of consent lower than their age of majority. Whilst it would be consistent to change both laws that doesn't make it any the less inconsistent to specifically alter your laws to allow for relay of erotic images for th…

> Since law or no law, kids will send pictures of themselves, I don't see exactly who are we helping by branding them as criminals.

Doesn't this line of logic extend to any law that gets broken on a regular basis, which includes rape, murder.. basically all laws?

I've no idea if the law is effective at putting kids off taking pictures of themselves, but the fact that it isn't 100% effective doesn't mean it is 0%.

Re: Rick Falkvinge: Why free speech is harmed by the ban on child porn

#299

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I had hoped to attack your counterargument that went as follows: Furthermore, even in the brutal-rape case, the child is not harmed when a third party makes copies of the video. The harm is indirect, but caused by the market for said video. Also, the owning of the object e.g. ivory is not illegal; the selling is illegal, right? So a little off the mark there.

Thank you for the civil reply. The harm is indirect, but caused by the market for said video. So... how about cases where someone just downloads a copy off the internet for free (and I mean absolutely free, not a quid-pro-quo exchange--a complete stranger downloads the video and has no further interactions with the provider)? Or when someone posts a copy for free download by complete strangers on the internet? That s…

My position is consistent in this way: as a culture, we condemn child pornography. We go through some considerable theatre, arguably more or less effective, to quash it. The premise is, it causes harm to children to be involved in highly-charged emotional situations that are at the very least profoundly confusing to them, and at worst cause lasting damage. It has been deemed by legislation and executive order to be worth suppressing the trade, even if only to make it perfectly, publicly clear that it is considered abhorrent.

As for harmlessly filming a child remotely, I can think of no greater invasion of privacy. Children cannot conceivably be capable of being said to consent to such activity. The damage may actually be done years later when they inevitably discover the betrayal and indecency they were subjected to.

Re: Rick Falkvinge: Why free speech is harmed by the ban on child porn

#300

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you claiming that it's a fact that legalisation of child pornography reduces instances of children being exploited to produce pornography? If not then I'm afraid I don't see how your comment is relevant to your universal claim in the previous comment in this thread? You never mentioned these conditions along with your previous requirement not to limit was is against the moral norm by use of legal statute.

I am claiming that calling 16 years old taking shots of themselves "producing and distributing child pornography" does not help any children. I could not care less about actual child pornography being illegal. Do whatever pleases you. Just take your dirty hands off teenagers.

Naughty troll, back to your hole.

I hope you find something productive to do with your time.

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