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America desperately needs more air traffic controllers

cnn.com

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Re: America desperately needs more air traffic controllers

#321

Post by userbinator »

foxyv wrote: post #44
butterlettuce wrote: post #16

Fellas, I got a question. Is it really safe to fly these days if this is now a national discussion?

USA Air Traffic deaths spiked back in 2018 during the Boeing 737 Max debacle. They have declined since then. With the introduction of ADS-B things are only getting safer for commercial air travel. A lack of ATC personnel will probably just mean airport delays and cancelled flights. They can't get any more tired and burnt out than they are now.

No, the 737 Max didn't cause any fatalities in the US.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lion_Air_Flight_610

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethiopian_Airlines_Flight_302

Re: America desperately needs more air traffic controllers

#322

Post by nicoburns »

adamanonymous wrote: post #293
d0gsg0w00f wrote: post #254

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Do you know why people go through the pain of becoming a doctor? Because they make a lot of money when they get through the other side. I think the guaranteed respect and admiration that comes from the title is actually a more powerful draw. Don't get me wrong, the money is good, but on par with senior manager in any large tech firm. Doctor is a primal respect that technical roles do not carry. You're not getting i…

> You're not getting instant respect from mother in laws and pastors as an ATC You would if it was known to pay $500k/yr+

Earning highly does not universally command respect the way being a doctor does. Some would even see earning that much as being immoral (i.e. actually negative)

Re: America desperately needs more air traffic controllers

#323

Post by sea_boat »

nradov wrote: post #286
jerlam wrote: post #258

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Sounds like a doctor? Not disagreeing, but the US also has a doctor shortage for at least a decade that it is seemingly unable to fix.

There are multiple reasons for the doctor shortage but it's at least partly intentional. The primary bottleneck on producing new physicians is the number of residency program slots: every year some students graduate with an MD but are unable to practice medicine because they can't get matched to a residency slot (some do get matched the following year). Most residency programs are funded through Medicare and Congress…

[dead]

Re: America desperately needs more air traffic controllers

#324

Post by imoverclocked »

tw04 wrote: post #201
legitster wrote: post #77

Everyone is going to make this about money or unions or etc, but my employer briefly worked with some ATC employee groups and I can tell you exactly why they are short staffed: - The FAA has strict hiring requirements. You have to be mentally and physically capable, and by their own admission less than 10% of applicants are qualified for the job. https://www.faa.gov/air-traffic-controller-qualifications - The trainin…

Everything you have listed above could be solved with money. Only 10% of applicants are physically and mentally qualified? Sounds like you need more applicants? Want to attract more applicants? Offer more compensation. The training and onboarding is incredibly long? Sounds like a doctor? Do you know why people go through the pain of becoming a doctor? Because they make a lot of money when they get through the other s…

> Technology hasn't changed is a political problem due to lack of... money.

Tell me you haven’t worked in aerospace without telling me you haven’t worked in aerospace. There is plenty of money sunk into all corners of the field but progress is slow because the risk of change is lives lost. At some point, the risk of not changing means more lives lost… and that’s when things will change.

Re: America desperately needs more air traffic controllers

#326

Post by portaouflop »

imoverclocked wrote: post #324
tw04 wrote: post #201

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Everything you have listed above could be solved with money. Only 10% of applicants are physically and mentally qualified? Sounds like you need more applicants? Want to attract more applicants? Offer more compensation. The training and onboarding is incredibly long? Sounds like a doctor? Do you know why people go through the pain of becoming a doctor? Because they make a lot of money when they get through the other s…

> Technology hasn't changed is a political problem due to lack of... money. Tell me you haven’t worked in aerospace without telling me you haven’t worked in aerospace. There is plenty of money sunk into all corners of the field but progress is slow because the risk of change is lives lost. At some point, the risk of not changing means more lives lost… and that’s when things will change.

Maybe the technology part can’t be fixed easily with money but sounds to me like all the other aspects of the money argument are still valid.

Re: America desperately needs more air traffic controllers

#327

Post by portaouflop »

nicoburns wrote: post #322
adamanonymous wrote: post #293

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You're not getting instant respect from mother in laws and pastors as an ATC You would if it was known to pay $500k/yr+

Earning highly does not universally command respect the way being a doctor does. Some would even see earning that much as being immoral (i.e. actually negative)

Which very highly paid job does not command respect in society? I can’t think of any (Outside of anti-capitalist circles ofc)

Re: America desperately needs more air traffic controllers

#328

Post by mjmsmith »

DangitBobby wrote: post #304
Graziano_M wrote: post #223

Earlier quoted context omitted.

https://www.tracingwoodgrains.com/p/the-full-story-of-the-fa...

It truly boggles my mind that Trump may have a legitimate basis for alleging that DEI policies have contributed to issues with ATC staffing. > First, to liberals: > I dislike Trump as much as anyone. Maybe I’m not supposed to play my hand like that while reporting a news article, but it’s true. I’ve wanted him out of politics since he entered the scene a decade ago, I voted against him three elections in a row, and I…

Seems like bad news for minorities either way. Even if the lawsuit is dismissed, who would want to take on one of the most stressful jobs now knowing that if something goes wrong, millions of racist white people (including the president) will feel emboldened to blame you because of your skin color?

Re: America desperately needs more air traffic controllers

#329

Post by throwaway2037 »

legitster wrote: post #77

Everyone is going to make this about money or unions or etc, but my employer briefly worked with some ATC employee groups and I can tell you exactly why they are short staffed: - The FAA has strict hiring requirements. You have to be mentally and physically capable, and by their own admission less than 10% of applicants are qualified for the job. https://www.faa.gov/air-traffic-controller-qualifications - The trainin…

    > about money
Some light Googling tells me that median pay is about 100K to 120K USD per year. Most people here would say that is not outstanding for such highly skilled work.

Why don't other highly developed countries have the same issues finding employees? You never read about "ATC hiring crisis" in other countries. Why only the US?

    > The real need is new and modern technology that automates much of the mistake-prone, human-centric tasks. But nobody wants to risk introducing changes to such a fragile system.
This sounds like a Catch-22. The current system is "fragile", but so fragile that we cannot improve it with new technology? This argument reads like a tautology. Repeating my previous point, why don't we hear the same about ATC systems in other highly developed nations/regions (Japan, Korea, EU, Canada, AU/NZ, etc.)?

The link that shared is excellent. When I looked under the medical requirements area, and section "Eye", I see:

    > Applicants must demonstrate distant and near vision of 20/20 or better in each eye separately. The use of bifocal contact lenses for the correction of near vision is unacceptable.
Is it possible to get a job without 20/20 near vision?

Re: America desperately needs more air traffic controllers

#330

Post by nicoburns »

portaouflop wrote: post #327
nicoburns wrote: post #322

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Earning highly does not universally command respect the way being a doctor does. Some would even see earning that much as being immoral (i.e. actually negative)

Which very highly paid job does not command respect in society? I can’t think of any (Outside of anti-capitalist circles ofc)

> Which very highly paid job does not command respect in society?

Banking? Sales?

> Outside of anti-capitalist circles ofc

Well that's quite the point. Maybe those circles are small in the US, but they aren't in most of the rest of the world.

Let me just say that if I called my parents and told them that I had gotten a well-paid job at, say, a hedge fund, they would not be impressed and would likely think less of me for it.

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