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When I tell the Windows Terminal team something is simple, I am "misguided"

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Re: When I tell the Windows Terminal team something is simple, I am "misguided"

#321

Post by jbverschoor »

lhecker wrote: post #139

Hi! I'm the person who wrote that blog post. If you have any questions whatsoever, please let me know! English is not my native language and "The solution is trivial" was meant sarcastic. The solution isn't trivial at all, nor is it complete, because solving the corner cases is complex. I'd also like to mention ahead of time that DirectWrite/Direct2D is very fast at drawing western (Latin) text without coloring (>200…

The problem that the poster has is that his input is basically being dismissed.

He was too 'overconfident' with his 'opinion'. But it is exactly what has been implemented.

It's basically this scenario:

> "You don't understand, it's very very hard, next to impossible, to create a website where you can leave an email address. i think you should reread all the RFCs and a bunch of programming books. You have no right to say anything, WE are Microsoft, not you, so you have NOOOOOOOOOO idea"

> 1 year later: "We created a website where you can leave an email address. It was actually not that difficult. But look, WE are Microsoft, so let us explain how smart we were to figure it out".

Re: When I tell the Windows Terminal team something is simple, I am "misguided"

#322

Post by chevill »

zamalek wrote: post #308
chevill wrote: post #216

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Suggest something better for your definition of "good" I already mentioned two things that would make it a "good" apology: - Directly mentioning whom you are apologizing too. In some cases addressing a group might be appropriate but in this case it seems like he should have mentioned Casey. - Directly mentioning what you did wrong instead of phrasing it in an intentionally vague way like "we turned inwards". Apologi…

> The hard part is getting over our egos In this scenario it really isn't Microsoft who are demonstrating a bleeding ego. Whatever you think about the apology, Microsoft made it without being called to do so. As an inconvenient data point, the apology (again, whatever you think about it) was omitted from the tweet. Casey blatantly rephrases the employee's words from "could be seen as impugning the reader" to "you are…

>In this scenario it really isn't Microsoft who are demonstrating a bleeding ego.

My bad that part of the comment wasn't directed at Microsoft, its just something that everyone in general has to face when apologizing.

I do agree that Casey should have linked the apology blog regardless of whether he felt it was sufficient.

Re: When I tell the Windows Terminal team something is simple, I am "misguided"

#323

Post by cma »

starburst wrote: post #59

Casey's next stream [1] will probably be very entertaining! Back when the original drama unfold I could very much empathize with his frustration. Let's not forget they told him that what he was suggesting was the work of a PHD when any game developer worth his grain of salt could do that very trivially. [1] https://www.twitch.tv/handmade_hero

> when any game developer worth his grain of salt could do that very trivially.

Just to note that Casey isn't any game developer, but one who is an expert on 2D UI rendering and popularized his own gui rendering type (probably more or less used in some older games but not articulated?): immediate mode rendering:

https://caseymuratori.com/blog_0001

He's basically an expert in this domain with a very popular approach to performant 2D gui rendering.

Re: When I tell the Windows Terminal team something is simple, I am "misguided"

#324

Post by brothir »

NikolaNovak wrote: post #98
DHowett wrote: post #30

Another day, another Casey post dunking on my team. Hi! This tweet misses the mark only a little bit; in a previous blog post, we apologized[1] pretty frankly to everyone involved in this discussion. I'll admit that we didn't list him by name, but neither did we list the other handful of folks involved. We should have. In turn, Casey rightly did not acknowledge it except to tell his followers that it was not a real a…

Thanks for your response; you're getting a lot of flack here, even repeated suggestions of ESL, by people who I feel have unreasonable expectation of perfection of others that I doubt they'd be able to fulfill 100% in every facet of their own life. English is indeed not my first language, but I've lived in North America for 25 years and stakeholder communication is part of my job description. "I did something wrong;…

You're missing out on a lot of details. For instance, one of the team members went into Casey's discord to harass him. That was not apologized for in any way. Secondly, the apology doesn't mention Casey specifically, and it's arrogant to believe you can address everyone adequately without mentioning specific names with specific apologies for the exact errors.

The apology is written almost tactically to avoid dealing with specifics. When the OP additionally started this entire thread with anger, the idea that steps have been taken forward is pretty much dead.

Re: When I tell the Windows Terminal team something is simple, I am "misguided"

#325

Post by brothir »

rob74 wrote: post #203
KennyBlanken wrote: post #154

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> We admit this feature began with a kerfuffle we caused in the summer of 2021. When confronted with being told our rendering pipeline had terrible performance, we turned inward. We relied on our existing experiences and we leaned heavily on our partner teams’ work to conclude the DirectWrite general purpose renderer was the best fit for our product. We were wrong. As such, we dedicate this experimental renderer to t…

I don't know about others, but that does sound like a real apology to me. At least they plainly write that they were wrong and not only "sorry for how this was handled" or something similar. I'm really curious what more you could expect...

Specifically naming Casey and specifically apologizing for the specifics of how it unfolded. The fact that a team member went into Casey's Discord to harass him would be one example to apologize for.

Re: When I tell the Windows Terminal team something is simple, I am "misguided"

#326

Post by bena »

phaistra wrote: post #244
bena wrote: post #210

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, DHowett's and LHeckler's responses were kind of dickish, but Casey's own words, tone, and attitude aren't doing him any favors either. Casey happens to be right on the technical issue in this case and people are just glossing over all the ways in which he was also wrong. Now, personally, I believe it was the WT Team's responsibility to let it go as they're representatives of a larger organization and as such ho…

How was Casey wrong?

He was wrong in how he approached the team. Everyone lacks tact in this exchange.

Re: When I tell the Windows Terminal team something is simple, I am "misguided"

#327

Post by noncoml »

lhecker wrote: post #139

Hi! I'm the person who wrote that blog post. If you have any questions whatsoever, please let me know! English is not my native language and "The solution is trivial" was meant sarcastic. The solution isn't trivial at all, nor is it complete, because solving the corner cases is complex. I'd also like to mention ahead of time that DirectWrite/Direct2D is very fast at drawing western (Latin) text without coloring (>200…

Hi! Are you also the person who wrote the first, insulting, reply?

Re: When I tell the Windows Terminal team something is simple, I am "misguided"

#328

Post by ripley12 »

mav88 wrote: post #256
KennyBlanken wrote: post #227

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Quoted post unavailable.

You're a liar. The entire thread on github [1] shows that it is a technical discussion about the unacceptably slow performance of virtual terminal sequences in Windows. Solutions are kicked around and debated until a Microsoft person steps in and calls what is essentially a weekend fix a 'doctoral research project' and accuses Casey of being 'combative'. Casey is rightly annoyed by this, closes the bug report and goe…

Not a liar. Casey was being combative, and still is. He keeps mobilizing his entire community against a small team because 1 GitHub issue didn't go the way he wanted. I can't believe this is still going on.

Re: When I tell the Windows Terminal team something is simple, I am "misguided"

#329

Post by starburst »

cma wrote: post #323
starburst wrote: post #59

Casey's next stream [1] will probably be very entertaining! Back when the original drama unfold I could very much empathize with his frustration. Let's not forget they told him that what he was suggesting was the work of a PHD when any game developer worth his grain of salt could do that very trivially. [1] https://www.twitch.tv/handmade_hero

> when any game developer worth his grain of salt could do that very trivially. Just to note that Casey isn't any game developer, but one who is an expert on 2D UI rendering and popularized his own gui rendering type (probably more or less used in some older games but not articulated?): immediate mode rendering: https://caseymuratori.com/blog_0001 He's basically an expert in this domain with a very popular approach t…

Of course he isn't just any game developer, that doesn't mean the issue at hands isn't trivial for a game developer to tackle.
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