Apple employees criticize work-from-home policy in open letter • Hacker News Board

Re: Apple employees criticize work-from-home policy in open letter

#321

Post by unethical_ban » Tue, May 03, 2022, 5:15 PM UTC

LightG wrote: post #100

azemetre wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe allow teams, but I don't think allowing individuals to choose isn't good. Having a team that's half remote/half in-person is worse of both worlds. What typically ends up happening IME is that the in-person half typically gets way way way more visibility than those working remote. It's especially worse if the company isn't remote first at all. It's especially terrible if the team is remotely distributed as well.…

"in-person half typically gets way way way more visibility than those working remote." That's a management problem, not a policy problem. Sorry.

It's the reality of humans being social creatures.

Re: Apple employees criticize work-from-home policy in open letter

#322

Post by bckr » Tue, May 03, 2022, 5:15 PM UTC

richwater wrote: post #315

hbosch wrote: post #185

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It might seem exhausting, or annoying, or overly descriptive... but it is true and I find it hard to dispute.

how exactly does making people come to the office result in a more white workforce?

Well, off the top of my head, black folks, asians, and latin folks might be more likely to be caretakers and/or further from the office.

That said, if they have Apple salaries, I'm sure they can work it out.

That said (again), they might need to spend more of that Apple salary than their peers to figure it out.

So, it's a bold and unsubstantiated statement, but might have some truth to it. Idk, wish they would cite sources.

Re: Apple employees criticize work-from-home policy in open letter

#323

Post by BaseballPhysics » Tue, May 03, 2022, 5:16 PM UTC

not2b wrote: post #285

BaseballPhysics wrote: post #215

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Then it sounds like they probably do want to a full return to in-office work, but don't think they can get away with it. I said " not the least of which because ". I didn't say that was the only reason. This is precisely the kind of cynical reading-between-the-lines that I'm talking about.

If you are experiencing cynical reading between the lines from your reports, you might want to ask yourself why. Why don't they trust you? Or maybe they think you're sincere but they don't trust senior management? I suspect that they have good reason for that, and you might take a closer look as to why.

You're not telling me anything I haven't already thought about. Remember, this thread started with me saying:

> At my workplace they keep nodding at "hybrid" without any specifics and the resulting fear due to uncertainty is far worse than a clear policy that some (many) people might not like...

The issue in my org is that, starting from the executive level down, everyone is saying "we are not forcing people back to the office", but no official policy has been written and published that lays that down in writing.

Then mouzogu came along implying that, even with a written policy, they still wouldn't believe it, thus the tangent about being frustrated.

But in my own org, today, absolutely staff have good reason to feel uncertain, if only because fear is filling the communication vacuum.

As for karaterobot's comment, they extrapolated a brief remark into a conspiracy theory. Rest assured, when communicating with my staff, there's a lot more nuance that's being conveyed.

Re: Apple employees criticize work-from-home policy in open letter

#324

Post by lolsal » Tue, May 03, 2022, 5:16 PM UTC

jedberg wrote: post #278

lolsal wrote: post #213

Can anyone honestly and sincerely tell me that online whiteboards are exactly equivalent to in-person whiteboard sessions? There is no value in having lunches together with your colleagues? There is no value in body-language when communicating? I'm all for fully WFH policies, but I think it's a bit naive or dishonest to say that it's exactly the same work experience. I've been working remote for over a decade and wil…

Have you ever done a white boarding session where more than one person was writing on the board at a time? The online whiteboard works great when one person is adding to it and it's easier to read (you don't have to deal with people's terrible handwriting) and you can save it. In most cases I've found that only one person is usually writing on the whiteboard, everyone else is just pointing at it and making suggestion…

> Have you ever done a white boarding session where more than one person was writing on the board at a time?

Very often back when I worked in an office.

> The online whiteboard works great when one person is adding to it and it's easier to read (you don't have to deal with people's terrible handwriting) and you can save it.

We took pictures of our whiteboards when we needed to save state, it worked great!

> In most cases I've found that only one person is usually writing on the whiteboard, everyone else is just pointing at it and making suggestions. So the one person with an iPad that is sharing it's screen is usually more than sufficient for online white boarding.

I'm glad you are able to make it work for you!

> But not helpful enough to outweigh working from home

I'm with you on this! I'll never go back to an office full time.

Re: Apple employees criticize work-from-home policy in open letter

#325

Post by lolsal » Tue, May 03, 2022, 5:18 PM UTC

shlurpy wrote: post #247

lolsal wrote: post #213

Can anyone honestly and sincerely tell me that online whiteboards are exactly equivalent to in-person whiteboard sessions? There is no value in having lunches together with your colleagues? There is no value in body-language when communicating? I'm all for fully WFH policies, but I think it's a bit naive or dishonest to say that it's exactly the same work experience. I've been working remote for over a decade and wil…

I think if commuting time was fully paid work hours, then companies would quickly agree that minor optimizations like this aren't worth it.

> I think if commuting time was fully paid work hours, then companies would quickly agree that minor optimizations like this aren't worth it.

I would argue that you have priced in your commute to your market value when you take a job that requires you to commute, especially since knowledge workers tend to be salary, not hourly.

Re: Apple employees criticize work-from-home policy in open letter

#326

Post by jakelazaroff » Tue, May 03, 2022, 5:18 PM UTC

BaseballPhysics wrote: post #252

banannaise wrote: post #223

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This is pure supposition based on no evidence. It's entirely a byproduct of a lack of trust in management intentions. What do you think the lack of trust comes from? We have a large body of evidence that management does things in exactly this way. You can argue that this evidence isn't germane, but you can't argue that it doesn't exist.

I wish I knew! The technology industry in general is one with some of the most empowered workers in the economy. The incredible imbalance in labour supply-and-demand means that salaries and benefits are sky high, work conditions tend to be quite favourable, and employees have a ton of options in selecting employers that have positive work environments. And yet there are some who seem to think that tech workers are co…

It’s because we know exactly how precarious the situation is. If the demand for labor dropped significantly, do you think companies would maintain the status quo working conditions? Or would we see many more instances of worker exploitation?

Re: Apple employees criticize work-from-home policy in open letter

#327

Post by nathanaldensr » Tue, May 03, 2022, 5:19 PM UTC

lolsal wrote: post #213

Can anyone honestly and sincerely tell me that online whiteboards are exactly equivalent to in-person whiteboard sessions? There is no value in having lunches together with your colleagues? There is no value in body-language when communicating? I'm all for fully WFH policies, but I think it's a bit naive or dishonest to say that it's exactly the same work experience. I've been working remote for over a decade and wil…

I don't think anyone is claiming that it's "exactly the same;" I think many people are claiming it's better after considering pros and cons.

Re: Apple employees criticize work-from-home policy in open letter

#328

Post by thebean11 » Tue, May 03, 2022, 5:19 PM UTC

golergka wrote: post #265

thebean11 wrote: post #166

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So what's your point?

My point is about how not being remote, quote, > will lead to a "younger, whiter, more male-dominated, more neuro-normative, more able-bodied" because it's not about coming to office 3 days a week, it's about not hiring international remote workers in the first place.

Tons of remote companies are US only, or even "one timezone in the US" only. Apple going remote doesn't mean the existing teams US teams would become international.

Re: Apple employees criticize work-from-home policy in open letter

#329

Post by bckr » Tue, May 03, 2022, 5:20 PM UTC

seneca wrote: post #220

turtledove wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We're all workers, and we should be supporting one another. Everyone has different concerns, but if you have a boss you have more in common with others who have bosses. Worker solidarity raises us all up. Support workers in improving their workplaces rather than blowing them off for making slightly more.

Blindly offering solidarity with absurd claims makes everyone involved look petulant. Be careful who you cast your lot with.

This may be true, but should we all strive to appear rational at all times? Maybe the most rational thing is for workers to always stick together.

Re: Apple employees criticize work-from-home policy in open letter

#330

Post by lolsal » Tue, May 03, 2022, 5:20 PM UTC

conjecTech wrote: post #314

lolsal wrote: post #213

Can anyone honestly and sincerely tell me that online whiteboards are exactly equivalent to in-person whiteboard sessions? There is no value in having lunches together with your colleagues? There is no value in body-language when communicating? I'm all for fully WFH policies, but I think it's a bit naive or dishonest to say that it's exactly the same work experience. I've been working remote for over a decade and wil…

Insisting on a new solution being "exactly the same" to adopt it pretty much ensures you will never leave the status quo. All changes in complex systems have tradeoffs. In-person whiteboard sessions can be exhilarating. They also tend to produce imprecise (or no) artifacts that rely heavily on the context of the meeting for interpretation. I noticed that when our team went remote during COVID and ideation was done by…

> Insisting on a new solution being "exactly the same" to adopt it pretty much ensures you will never leave the status quo.

I'm not sure where you got that I said that, if you read what I wrote you'll see that I've been fully remote for over a decade. I don't in any way insist that fully remote work needs to be exactly the same as in-office work.