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The case against masks at school

theatlantic.com

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Re: The case against masks at school

#321

Post by nradov »

TameAntelope wrote: post #279
nradov wrote: post #269

Earlier quoted context omitted.

According to the CDC the COVID-19 infection fatality rate for children is 0.002%. https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/cases-updates/burd... Children can spread the virus to adults, but adults who want to be vaccinated have been for months now. And since everyone will be exposed anyway it hardly matters who does the exposing. https://www.medpagetoday.com/opinion/vinay-prasad/94646

How many children are there in the US? I'll let you pick the number you'd like to multiply by 0.00002, to get the number of children you're okay with killing.

It's easy to act morally superior and make cheap emotional arguments for when you're not the one who has to make hard decisions. All lives have value, but no life has infinite value. You can't seriously expect the majority to endure perpetual mandates and restrictions just to provide some limited, temporary protection to a small minority who are vulnerable due to risk factors like obesity.

https://reason.com/2022/01/03/cdc-covid-19-children-hospital...

And in the long run it won't make any difference anyway. Everyone will be exposed regardless of whether or not schoolchildren are subjected to mask mandates. So what's the point of continuing the charade?

https://www.medpagetoday.com/opinion/vinay-prasad/94646

Re: The case against masks at school

#322

Post by rovolo »

hammock wrote: post #188
subsubzero wrote: post #155

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The north star for most countries and cities has always been cases over hospitalizations or deaths. With vaccine intake high in most developed countries a covid infection is like a cold or a bad flu for some. I think the time has come to rethink this goal of cases being a metric to shut down everything and let society return to some sense of normalcy while still maintaining a safety mandate for those with special con…

Sounds like you are on a path to awakening so I don't want to discourage you, but it might be worth sharing additional data and context to parts of your comment. >With vaccine intake high in most developed countries a covid infection is like a cold or a bad flu for some. That may be more driven by the mildness of Omicron than it is by the protective effect of the vaccine. For example, the latest data show that vaccin…

You're taking 14 vs 10 from table 15 on page 50 on the report. Page 51 says:

> The rates in Table 15 should not be used as a measures of vaccine effectiveness due to unaccounted for biases and risk factors.

The age-standardized morality rates you mentioned are for just the week of Jan 8-14 (though the same pattern is visible for earlier weeks). But, you didn't mention 3-dose stats with show the opposite pattern:

- Unvaccinated: 16/1.5m raw; 10/100k age adj

- 2-dose: 33/1m raw; 14/100k age adj

- 3-dose: 71/3m raw; 1.5/100k age adj

You can't infer the protectiveness of vaccination in elders directly from this age-adjusted mortality data because Scotland has 100% 2+ dose coverage in those age 60+. The unvaccinated group only includes people under 60 while the vaccinated group includes both. You have to use other observations to judge the protective effect.

https://public.tableau.com/app/profile/phs.covid.19/viz/COVI...

(In reality the number is a bit under 100% because the denominator and the numerator are not linked together. They're tracking sum totals, not individual people.)

Re: The case against masks at school

#323

Post by dusing »

veemjeem wrote: post #237
xondono wrote: post #219

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Wtf, masks absolutely work. I’m not that sure. A lot of experts agree that there’s not much quality data to reach that conclusion. Most “definitive proof” comes from mechanical studies (they measure how far your saliva is reaching with and with out mask), but that’s not the only important factor. Masks are not designed for full day use, and by wearing them everyone is constantly touching their face, mouth and nose.…

Nurses working in the ICU during the beginning of the pandemic would use the same mask for an entire week without losing efficacy. If the masks didn't work, we would have seen a huge number of them infected in the NYC hospitals but that didn't happen. Most viruses don't survive very long on surfaces.

ICU nurses wear N95 masks that are fitted and tested (a bad tasting/smelling aerosol is used). It is completely sealed around the face. This is how my SIL did COVID ICU for 1.5 years every week without contracting it. Not the same as the one size fits all n95 people loosely place on their faces.

Re: The case against masks at school

#324

Post by tootie »

ngngngng wrote: post #275

Funny to watch the Atlantic change directions on COVID over the last few months. I go back and forth on masks. In general I find them to be a minor inconvenience, although I believe they're more inconvenient for me than most because I'm blind and no matter what I do they always fog up my glasses. But while masks themselves are mildly inconvenient, harsh mask mandates and restrictions become much more of an annoyance…

Katherine Wu has been a font of great information on Covid issues, especially vaccines. I noticed she's not party to this particular article. I'm wondering if she's gnashing her teeth right now or about to launch a Twitter tirade. This could just be The Atlantic giving space to a breadth of ideas rather than an actual endorsement of their thesis.

And as a parent with two kids in school they have absolutely zero complaints about their masks and wear them all day even outside. They think they're cool and comfortable. Anecdote but it definitely colors my opinion.

Re: The case against masks at school

#325

Post by ngngngng »

phailhaus wrote: post #307
ngngngng wrote: post #275

Funny to watch the Atlantic change directions on COVID over the last few months. I go back and forth on masks. In general I find them to be a minor inconvenience, although I believe they're more inconvenient for me than most because I'm blind and no matter what I do they always fog up my glasses. But while masks themselves are mildly inconvenient, harsh mask mandates and restrictions become much more of an annoyance…

> Try taking a 6 hour flight with a 2 year old that's required to keep his mask on the entire flight, and when he takes it off (because he's 2, of course he's going to take it off) the flight attendants threaten to turn the plane around and ban you permanently. Never heard about this, source? Toddlers tend to be somewhat exempt from mask mandates because they're toddlers and everyone understands when they don't compl…

https://www.tsa.gov/news/press/releases/2021/08/20/tsa-exten...

The TSA mandate itself. Only those under age 2 are exempt from it. This is just for the US obviously, not sure about other places. But in my experience the less you paid for your ticket the more strict the airline is. I typically don't fly budget airlines but did once during the pandemic and that's when a flight attendant shouted at me and my wife when our toddler had taken his mask off and we didn't notice.

Re: The case against masks at school

#326

Post by rovolo »

hammock wrote: post #243
ciceryadam wrote: post #217

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From December 11 to January 7, 2022, 107 patients died in Scotland who were vaccinated twice. Most of them (more than 95 percent) received the second dose more than six months before their deaths. As many as 96 percent of them "had other health complications that contributed to their deaths," the PHS report said. Their average age was 78.1 years.

Yes, the vaccine effectiveness wanes quite significantly at 6 months. Most covid deaths, regardless of vaccination status, had other health complications that contributed. And the average age of covid deaths, regardless of vaccination status, is over 70. Was there a particular takeaway you were looking to impart?

The scots over 70 are 100% 2+ doses. There is no unvaccinated comparison group in Scotland for people over 70.

https://public.tableau.com/app/profile/phs.covid.19/viz/COVI...

Re: The case against masks at school

#327

Post by elsonrodriguez »

champagnois wrote: post #320
elsonrodriguez wrote: post #309

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Many of the test aerosols they use to test N95s and similar are smaller than the coronavirus. Also they have done virus measurements from sick people through masks that prove there is filtration happening.

N95s work via an electric polarity of the filter. This charge is what captures the viruses. Filtration fades when the charge is lost. I don't need to see your studies because I have helped build and certify N95 factories and know a lot about it. The masks arent usable for long and arent reusable, either. Cloth masks do nothing and are not a consideration to any serious adult.

Why make the claim that n95s don't filter viruses and then say that they do indeed capture viruses?

Also yes the filtration fades but there's data out there showing 40 hours of use on KF94s still showing filtration percentages in the low 90s.

Re: The case against masks at school

#328

Post by naasking »

elsonrodriguez wrote: post #318
naasking wrote: post #308

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It's like having a kid constantly getting pinkeye from not wiping their ass properly, and then saying toilet paper is pointless, instead of teaching the kid how to wipe and wash properly. Poor adherence in young populations is exactly the point.

There is a deep irony in that this conversation concerns schools and yet we're here implying that it's pointless to teach children anything.

Not sure how you go from "poor adherence on masks" to "it's pointless to teach kids anything".

Re: The case against masks at school

#329

Post by dboreham »

rhino369 wrote: post #88
criddell wrote: post #15

My kids attend a university in Canada and live in residence on campus. They have had incredibly strict rules around masking and gatherings. It's clear that they are only considering one variable - number of infections - and it seems like they aren't considering any other factors. For example, in the dorm there is a common area with a piano. Because of COVID, playing that piano is banned. Even if there was a reasonabl…

And if its anything like American colleges, the draconian restrictions don't actually stop the students from crowding into over-packed apartment and house parties over the weekends.

This has been my son's experience : masks required in the classroom but the students spread disease (not just COVID -- Flu and colds as well) rampantly in the dorms.

Re: The case against masks at school

#330

Post by criddell »

gglitch wrote: post #277
criddell wrote: post #227

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> would you be willing to take responsibility for spreading coronavirus to n other people so you can play the piano? Would you be willing to accept responsibility for the increased depression and loneliness among the young people who live together in this building that could result from banning the piano?

Yes, exactly. We have conflicting values to balance. I hope most of us can do it most of the time from the goal, however quixotic, of doing the most good for the most people. I don't claim to know what that is, and I am not saying that the kid in the example shouldn't be able to play the piano (though, on that note, it seems to me that if a student's well-being depends that directly on being able to play the piano, t…

> if a student's well-being depends that directly on being able to play the piano

It's death by a thousand cuts. The piano policy isn't that devastating by itself, but it's one of 50 things that have been taken away.

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