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Private censorship is not the best way to fight hate or defend democracy (2018)

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Re: Private censorship is not the best way to fight hate or defend democracy (2018)

#321

Post by throwaway894345 »

kgwxd wrote: post #317
throwaway894345 wrote: post #301

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I'm not convinced it's useful to make a distinction between the spirit and the law anyway. The concept of government and law is just as abstract. My use of "abstract" refers to the fact that the first amendment applies only to the US government, and consequently it's more concrete or restricted than the broader "spirit". Any particular "free speech" law is just one concrete instance of the more abstract concept of…

I think most people try to minimize visibility and impact of speech they don't agree with in whatever little part of the world they have influence over by e.g. verbalizing disagreement and counter arguments; not inviting people they strongly disagree with to things; not hiring them; not recommending their business; not letting them get near their kids; down voting; 1 star reviews; suggesting others do the same; embel…

> People in government positions can do all that legally, maybe with a few extra things to tip-toe around, but not much.

I don't see any problem with this? They're exercising their own free speech rights as private citizens, which is entirely compatible with free speech principles and the first amendment.

> Protests aren't really a government provided platform, they're more a natural gathering of people that the government is explicitly forbidden from breaking up by using their extraordinary powers.

"Public spaces" are a government provided platform. Similarly, if a public university allows certain groups to chalk messages on the sidewalk, they're legally obliged to let other groups chalk messages as well. Arguing that one or both of these aren't a "platform" is purely semantics.

Re: Private censorship is not the best way to fight hate or defend democracy (2018)

#322

Post by PoignardAzur »

_qbjt wrote: post #296
PoignardAzur wrote: post #283

Earlier quoted context omitted.

FWIW r/actuallesbians is extremely supportive towards trans women. (I don't know subreddits for trans men) But even then, abusive PMs are still a problem.

That’s cool but I’m not a lesbian. I’m a straight trans woman who just wants to live her life and not be bothered.

Ah, sorry, got nothing. (I do hope the rec helps some people out there)

Re: Private censorship is not the best way to fight hate or defend democracy (2018)

#323

Post by gremloni »

inglor_cz wrote: post #279
gremloni wrote: post #247

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And that’s okay. Fewer “higher quality” recruits are easier to go after individually.

History says that well-organized, even if smaller movements, have higher chances of achieving their goals. I can recommend this article about inefficiency of online movements: https://www.theatlantic.com/technology/archive/2019/05/in-pe...

You can say the same about forces that work against the criminals as well except they’re well organized and have larger numbers.

Your link doesn’t take into account if the chilling effect is what leads to ephemeral online hate movements.

Re: Private censorship is not the best way to fight hate or defend democracy (2018)

#324

Post by gremloni »

inglor_cz wrote: post #280
gremloni wrote: post #246

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The more someone has to rely on backup channels and then backups of the back channel, the less likely you enroll new members.

As I said elsewhere in this thread (and linked to an article on similar topic), success isn't measured by sheer numbers of lukewarm sympathisers alone. It is not as if George Washington or the Civil Rights Movement recruited masses of followers online. They started with relatively small but cohesive units. Yes, it took them longer than it takes today to assemble a flash mob. But the efficiency measured by capability…

Even so, it makes very little sense to provide a platform to these hardcore organizations to continue to recruit from. The dismantling of the old KKK in the United States is a great success story to work off of.

Re: Private censorship is not the best way to fight hate or defend democracy (2018)

#325

Post by belltaco »

N00bN00b wrote: post #318
belltaco wrote: post #312

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Reddit-like software is open source, what's stopping anyone like you then? Talk is cheap. >Ad supported is just one such model and it's not a very new one at that. Remember, you made this comment on server that was provided to you for free without the need of ad support. There are job ads on HN, plus HN is even more highly moderated than Reddit. So it's a very bad example.

>Reddit-like software is open source, what's stopping anyone like you then? Talk is cheap. That source code hasn't been updated in years. >There are job ads on HN, plus HN is even more highly moderated than Reddit. So it's a very bad example. If you add meaning to the words of others that is not there, then indeed, the examples are bad. To bring up the moderation here, you're supposed to be nice and interpret the wor…

>That source code hasn't been updated in years.

Oh so it does cost effort and money to hire people to make a site like Reddit, thought you said it's easy and cheap and approaches free. So how does Reddit recoup that money???

Anyway, I said Reddit-like, not Reddit. E.g. https://github.com/libertysoft3/saidit

Old Reddit code is still pretty good.

>If you add meaning to the words of others that is not there, then indeed, the examples are bad.

>To bring up the moderation here, you're supposed to be nice and interpret the words of others positively. Your reply is bordering on malicious:

My point was that HN runs on ads and the financial goodwill of YC. If there's hate speech and misinformation on here then it would reflect badly on YC and YC backed companies. So we run into the exact same problem with Reddit and Youtube servers running with ad companies that don't want ads on a site with hate speech and misinformation.

If you want to set up or donate to such a site to prevent these influences, as you seem to think servers, bandwidth and maintenance is cheap. I think only talk is cheap, prove me wrong. What are the reasons for not creating such a site since you feel so strongly about censorship?

Re: Private censorship is not the best way to fight hate or defend democracy (2018)

#326

Post by raxxorrax »

_qbjt wrote: post #299
raxxorrax wrote: post #294

Earlier quoted context omitted.

LGBT has become political not to the preference of a lot of its members. But the flag has become a political instrument for signaling. Abused against, I guess.

Most of the people I see making LGBT “political” are people outside of our community who feel the need to constantly tell trans people how they feel about us - our pronouns, what gendered bathroom we should use, who we should be able to compete against athletically, whether we were lying as kids, whether or not they would date us. Like ugh, stop. Then you have the daily /r/Cringetopia or /r/HolUp thread that makes it…

That is one side, but the more relevant is that you see the flag to virtue signal. Even arms manufacturers fly it to signal their alleged values. The consequences for LGBT people in nations not really too friendly with western countries is obvious and you need to account for reactionaries and maybe think beyond your bottom line for governmental contracts.

Re: Private censorship is not the best way to fight hate or defend democracy (2018)

#327

Post by maccolgan »

cratermoon wrote: post #270
mardifoufs wrote: post #218

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In the US? Yes it is. You realize you are quoting a 1919 supreme court case (that used the "fire in a theater" argument to make protesting against the draft illegal)... which has been overturned 50 years ago, right?

Oh I'm sorry, I didn't realize I was talking to constitutional scholars. What law school did you go to? How long have you been a member of the SCOTUS bar? What law reviews have published your work and how many constitutional law cases have you argued?

When did HN end up at this?

Re: Private censorship is not the best way to fight hate or defend democracy (2018)

#328

Post by inglor_cz »

HWR_14 wrote: post #284
inglor_cz wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If ISIS can recruit in person by talking to vulnerable people in the right mosques, surely other extremists have backup channels as well.

Person to person doesn't scale as well as the internet.

Again: yes, it does not scale as well. But scale to what? Silicon Valley is generally obsessed with quick growth without thinking about long term impact. But politics is generally long term.

It is easy to put together a temporary, unstable mob of people in virtual reality. But real political impact of such mobs tends to be superficial.

Impactful organizations such as, well, the Taliban, sacrifice rapid growth and substitute it with higher-quality personal connections.

Re: Private censorship is not the best way to fight hate or defend democracy (2018)

#329

Post by coolgeek »

rjbwork wrote: post #106
N00bN00b wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm being censored on Reddit myself. I'm not really sure why exactly. I suspect it has to do with having a NSFW tag on my account (that I didn't put there) that I'm afraid to turn off, because of the warning that's next to that button and it doesn't explain what "swearing" is exactly and if I turn it off and write "fuck" I might get banned. My account provides a lot of help to other people, it's highly valued by the…

I don't think I've ever seen an account with an NSFW tag/flair. Posts? Yeah. Subreddits? Yup. Possibly a flair for your user on a particular subreddit added by a mod for some reason? Sure. But not accounts. Can you link to this tag?

It seems that there are a fair number of sex workers on reddit whose profiles are tagged NSFW. Presumably, they would view the tag as an asset.

(I don't have any experience with these accounts myself. But I've stumbled across more than one in mainstream subreddits, and my curiosity was piqued. Only pointing this out to note that this comment reflects the totality of my knowledge on the subject.)

Re: Private censorship is not the best way to fight hate or defend democracy (2018)

#330

Post by _bfhp »

cratermoon wrote: post #307
_bfhp wrote: post #217

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Let's trust the billionaire execs at Google, Facebook, Amazon and Twitter to listen to the correct academics rather than responding to the incentives of capital. When faced with calls to ban pro-Palestinian rights activism on their platforms, they've never caved before

> Let's trust the billionaire execs at Google, Facebook, Amazon and Twitter to listen to the correct academics rather than responding to the incentives of capital That's what we're doing now: it's a neoliberal "free market" and the acolytes of the Chicago School tell us that the incentives of capital will eventually lead to the best possible outcome because rational actors will make perfect choices with complete info…

Not if the Left actually builds arguments and movements to change minds and and wins political power. But instead many spend their time begging the rich white men at Facebook and Twitter to decide which political speech deserves to be hidden from millions of people
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