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Building a vision of life without work (2015)

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Re: Building a vision of life without work (2015)

#321

Post by jseban »

leetcrew wrote: post #294
quietbritishjim wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> [article author, to wife] ... I thought that what you wanted was to live a life of freedom, with me. We’d talked about this. > [article author's wife] Not exactly. I wanted to have kids with you and work and be like everyone else. Live a normal life. I’m tired of being weird. And I don’t want to go back to work if you aren’t. That’s weird too. You wouldn’t even be a stay-at-home-dad. You’d be nothing. > [article au…

> [article author's wife] Not exactly. I wanted to have kids with you and work and be like everyone else. Live a normal life. I’m tired of being weird. And I don’t want to go back to work if you aren’t. That’s weird too. You wouldn’t even be a stay-at-home-dad. You’d be nothing. this part is confusing. it seems like she's saying she wanted to be working and have kids the whole time? hard to understand how you could g…

I think she's totally reasonable in saying this, and I think it's normal that after you've achieved the goal and finished a project you've been working on together, you would move on to the next project. And the big project in a heterosexual relationship is naturally having a family, and I think it IS weird to insist on continuing with a "life of freedom" when you don't really have any thing particular that you're working on. And in the end, he also found out that what he needed to be happy, was actually to buy a house and start a family, so he ended up at the same point himself eventually with his new partner.

Re: Building a vision of life without work (2015)

#322

Post by ddlutz »

PragmaticPulp wrote: post #105
SavantIdiot wrote: post #39

I'm 52 and have 2.5MM in an IRA (200k cash) and debt of just a $200k mortgage (and this is weaksauce compared to my peers who all became VPs or C*Os). And the idea of trying to live off an IRA that is currently stocks/bonds/ETFs scares the bejeebers out of me. I think it is more about the personality than the money: do you have the risk-tolerance like this guy to say "fuck it, it will all work out," or are you like m…

> do you have the risk-tolerance like this guy to say "fuck it, it will all work out," He posted a follow-up blog post years later. Sadly, it didn't work out for him. He had to return to work. I agree with your general sentiment: Some of these extreme early retirement stories are really pushing the limits reasonable amounts of money to retire with. I don't think it's reasonable for people in their 30s or even 20s to…

people in 20s and 30s spending usually should go down in retirement, right? Ideally you have no mortgage and depending on your situation save 1.5k-4k a month post-tax right there.

Re: Building a vision of life without work (2015)

#323

Post by mmcdermott »

disintegore wrote: post #142
mmcdermott wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The root difference between communism and capitalism comes down to their respective views of human nature. Communism views human as fundamentally decent but are made lower by the exploitation of those with capital and power. Capitalism, on the other hand, views human beings as lacking this decent base and presupposes that they will not produce things of mutual benefit without motivation. The critique of communism tha…

That would imply that the individual in question cannot imagine any incentive to work other than the profit motive, which in my eyes is not only an extremely depressing notion to contemplate, but also one that falls apart very rapidly if you consider that human society predates capitalism by thousands of years, and that even within capitalist society itself there are countless examples of the opposite.

I don't think capitalism assumes profit to be the sole motivation for activity, just that it is the only one that works well for creating cooperation in the large. Almost anyone, regardless of belief system, practices or can conceive of hobbies that are done for the intrinsic enjoyment of the thing. Some hobbies produce goods or services (building models or playing music) but some may not (reading).

What lies at the heart of any economic system is the division of labor as a multiplier of wealth. A hunter-gatherer requires neither communism nor capitalism to motivate if failure to hunt/gather results in starvation. An individual's motivation need not go farther than that. Once you start dividing labor, you also need a way to incentivize people to pick the right labor.

Communism supposes that people will continue to pick valuable jobs (here defined as ones that generate goods and services for the collective) of their own accord. Capitalism says that profit & loss will sort out who is doing what is deemed beneficial by others.

This, if true, does imply something about human nature and not necessarily something good. That doesn't make it more or less true.

Re: Building a vision of life without work (2015)

#324

Post by carbonclan »

milliondollar wrote: post #198
zoba wrote: post #67

I was 2nd employee at a unicorn startup and have been on a work-hiatus for almost a year. Now, I live amongst Amish people in the country. My biggest insight has been a mindset change. Previously my underlying approach to life looked like: "I will do X which will enable me to do Y so that I can finally do Z." I now approach my days with "What will make me happy?" This is an experiment I'm performing. A structured lif…

I'm in a similar boat. Not outrageously rich, but rich enough that I won't spend it all before I die. Work in a highly lucrative industry, which bores the hell out of me. I took a couple years off. Built a house, moved in, then.... I was definitely hit with a lack of purpose. I'm back to work now at old career trying to figure out "what to do with my life" again. There was a Catch-22 for me, in that "working" at any…

Purpose is so key! While I agree to the work life balance…. I have spent a good 6 years completely consumed 100% into work just coz I felt it was my calling! In the bargain lost out heavily in my personal life. But not sure if I regret that…. After that there was such a huge burnout, I’m still recuperating…. Is purpose overrated? Or does it put one off balance?

Re: Building a vision of life without work (2015)

#325

Post by carbonclan »

carbonclan wrote: post #324
milliondollar wrote: post #198

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm in a similar boat. Not outrageously rich, but rich enough that I won't spend it all before I die. Work in a highly lucrative industry, which bores the hell out of me. I took a couple years off. Built a house, moved in, then.... I was definitely hit with a lack of purpose. I'm back to work now at old career trying to figure out "what to do with my life" again. There was a Catch-22 for me, in that "working" at any…

Purpose is so key! While I agree to the work life balance…. I have spent a good 6 years completely consumed 100% into work just coz I felt it was my calling! In the bargain lost out heavily in my personal life. But not sure if I regret that…. After that there was such a huge burnout, I’m still recuperating…. Is purpose overrated? Or does it put one off balance?

Today, I’ve changed my career drastically - moved frm industry to academia - taking one day at a time. And still unsure whr I’m headed. My earlier project-mgmt self would be agast to know the me today -

Re: Building a vision of life without work (2015)

#326

Post by carbonclan »

abcc8 wrote: post #173
low_common wrote: post #139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How do you "live amongst the Amish"? Sounds like you're contributing to their community in some ways ie. dam building. Did you buy any land from them or a home? Just renting? I always assumed that they're an insular community. Want to get down there sometime and try the food. PA Dutch food looks so good.

We are lucky enough to live in an area with a strong amish presence. Their food is amazing, going out to eat it is like eating a wonderful home cooked meal. Amish BBQ, while not as flashy as other styes, is also definitely worth a try. Amish burnt butter noodles are sublime and are my overall favorite... that and the fritters and pies.

Sounds interesting!

Re: Building a vision of life without work (2015)

#327

Post by gonehome »

dougmwne wrote: post #295
notenoughhorses wrote: post #223

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I appreciated reading about how both of them reacted to the realities of early retirement. I like to think I could be like the author, and be happy without much, but it did make me think if I might be more like his SO, especially when I see my friends upgrading their lives in our 40s. My take away from the post is that they fundamentally felt 2 different ways about it. The author did not feel the stuff his SO felt. B…

There was definitely some unreliable narrator there. She said she wanted kids. Apparently he did not, since presumably they were not part of the budget. He claimed to be outside the need for more spending and accused her of being fooled by social media, but admits he felt a lot of shame at falling behind his peers in accomplishment. She said she couldn't see herself being with someone who wouldn't work to improve the…

It sounded like she changed her mind on the kids thing - or at least they didn't discuss it as much as they should have.

The sense I got was that it was status related and he was pretty close to right. She didn't like being with someone who wasn't working, didn't like telling her friends her SO didn't work, didn't like not having things to talk about, etc. He was low status compared to her friends.

Eventually she cheated on him - I think that's wrong, but the motivation behind it is not unpredictable or uncommon: https://samharris.org/podcasts/254-mating-strategies-earthli...

The new relationship is different in part because his SO is a librarian with a small income, there isn't as much of a status divide and he is high status in that match given his high net worth.

There's a lot of evidence that women tend to select people at their level or higher for mates: http://rationallyspeakingpodcast.org/216-being-a-transhumani...

A lot of this feels like a narrative on top of that core issue without recognizing the underlying problem.

Obviously things are more complex than this at the individual level, but it feels like a lot of talking around the core issue without recognizing it.

I'm not making morality judgements on any of this (except perhaps the cheating), but it's good to recognize the pragmatic reality of the world you're in when making these kinds of decisions. If you decide to retire early, it'll likely affect your relationship opportunities in some ways you may not understand.

Re: Building a vision of life without work (2015)

#328

Post by scotty79 »

legohead wrote: post #136
zoba wrote: post #67

I was 2nd employee at a unicorn startup and have been on a work-hiatus for almost a year. Now, I live amongst Amish people in the country. My biggest insight has been a mindset change. Previously my underlying approach to life looked like: "I will do X which will enable me to do Y so that I can finally do Z." I now approach my days with "What will make me happy?" This is an experiment I'm performing. A structured lif…

I know exactly what makes me happy -- playing video games, eating good food, living in a nice climate (CA or Hawaii), and traveling the world. Unfortunately my happiness comes with a price tag.

I'm doing exactly that. Except for traveling. Always hated that. And climate is good enough for me where I always lived. And take out food is often declicious.

So yeah. I'm just sitting at home, playing video games and ordering takeouts. Pricetag is not that high.

And that's the current best answer to "What makes me happy?"

Re: Building a vision of life without work (2015)

#329

Post by mikem170 »

someelephant wrote: post #58
SavantIdiot wrote: post #39

I'm 52 and have 2.5MM in an IRA (200k cash) and debt of just a $200k mortgage (and this is weaksauce compared to my peers who all became VPs or C*Os). And the idea of trying to live off an IRA that is currently stocks/bonds/ETFs scares the bejeebers out of me. I think it is more about the personality than the money: do you have the risk-tolerance like this guy to say "fuck it, it will all work out," or are you like m…

Sorry to hear you operate at such a high baseline anxiety. I certainly hope you've explored every avenue outside addictive medications for getting it under control. And yes, I think any American should rightfully be terrified of being bankrupted by medical bills. But the world is a big place and a lot of it is much safer than the US.

> American should rightfully be terrified of being bankrupted by medical bills

FYI: Retirement accounts are protected from medical bills in many states, even without filing bankruptcy. This varies, and the amount protected, by state. The feds allow one million dollars in an ira to be protected from medical bills if declaring bankruptcy. [0]

[0] https://pocketsense.com/can-ira-pay-medical-bills-7887792.ht...

Re: Building a vision of life without work (2015)

#330

Post by stouset »

monktastic1 wrote: post #176
PragmaticPulp wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Previously my underlying approach to life looked like: "I will do X which will enable me to do Y so that I can finally do Z." I now approach my days with "What will make me happy?" Great insight that is worth repeating. One of my biggest problems with FIRE discussions is how much they reinforce the idea that retirement is a prerequisite for achieving happiness. This leads a lot of FIRE-minded people to double down…

> One of my biggest problems with FIRE discussions is how much they reinforce the idea that retirement is a prerequisite for achieving happiness. This leads a lot of FIRE-minded people to double down on jobs they hate that consume too much of their time and energy, only because they think it will better enable them to be happy later. On the FIRE subreddit, anyway, they're very clear that: 1. It's the FI part that rea…

I'm replying again to this same comment, but anecdotally #3 is something I've seen to a surprising degree.

There are a lot of posts in FI subreddits/forums where people have retired early and are totally lost, asking what they should do to find meaning or enjoyment out of life now that they're not working. They've spent so much of their time and energy of their prime years on working and saving that they haven't had anything left over to discover what sorts of things really bring them fulfillment, and it's incredibly disheartening to see.

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