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A backlash against gender ideology is starting in universities

economist.com

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Re: A backlash against gender ideology is starting in universities

#321

Post by tomp »

IncRnd wrote: post #176
rootusrootus wrote: post #145

What a tough problem to solve. My current thought on the gender identity issue is that society should default to the absolute minimum amount of categorizing people by their gender. What you identify as only matters to the extent that we divide people. Nobody would care if you used the women's bathroom, if such a thing did not exist. And when it is absolutely necessary for a distinction to exist, then we can spend the…

> This would mean throwing out a lot of the more epheremeral complaints "I feel unsafe if there is a man in the bathroom." Why? Let's fix that part, then. Because there are going to be scary women too. Do you recognize that there are actual reasons that a woman might not want to go into a bathroom with 5 men in it?

It took a lot of mental self-awareness on my part, and reading a lot of such statements, to recognise how strongly I've been mentally programmed (brainwashed) by society to think of men as evil, and not even flinch when I used to read statements like the one above (implying / assuming that men are, by default, extremely violent and dangerous, and that everyone is justified by judging every man as such).

It's easier to see if you replace "men" (currently a non-favoured demographic) by e.g. "black" (currently a favoured demographic).

> Do you recognize that there are actual reasons that a white person might not want to go into a bathroom with 5 black people in it?

Re: A backlash against gender ideology is starting in universities

#322

Post by weakfish »

noobermin wrote: post #213

>“shut the fuck up, TERF” (trans-exclusionary radical feminist, a slur) I stopped reading there. The protestors are framed as crazy and insane but TERF is a slur, there's no "opinion" marker on the article, it's pretty clear the author is coming from a biased perspective although framed as objective. When they can't even start the article of a controversial topic with even a weak attempt at objectivity I know enough…

Yeah, asserting TERF, an acronym subsection of feminism, as a slur shows the true feeling behind the article.

Re: A backlash against gender ideology is starting in universities

#323

Post by plank_time »

drenvuk wrote: post #268

Can someone please tell me how important this topic based on the amount of news time and eyeballs it attracts relative to the number of people that it affects? The numbers I can find for US citizens is: 0.6% or 1,988,696 out 331,449,281 of people total for the entirety of the US in 2021. > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_demographics_of_the_Unite... In the UK where the featured article took place the latest poll I…

This is how the ruling class controls us peons. They have us fight each other vociferously over things like this or abortion or gay marriage, while they stay above it and do nothing except minor moral victories.

The sad thing is that this works.

Re: A backlash against gender ideology is starting in universities

#324

Post by whateveracct »

teakettle42 wrote: post #253
saxonww wrote: post #196

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The idea is that sex and gender are different though; gender _is_ a social construct. I think lack of agreement on this is a big part of the issue right now. Edit: as pointed out below, gender roles are something we've made up, but preferences and behavior themselves (which we're calling gender) are not. Still separate from sex.

> gender _is_ a social construct. If gender is distinct from sex, then can you explain the qualifying characteristics of a "gender"? What is the definition of "woman"? What is the definition of "man"?

That's kind of the point. There isn't one.

Wearing high heels isn't related to being a woman intrinsically, and you don't have to be a woman to wear high heels.

Re: A backlash against gender ideology is starting in universities

#325

Post by mike00632 »

LanceH wrote: post #288
mike00632 wrote: post #246

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure there is. My legal name and the name I sign on documents is "Michael" but I could have a preference for "Mike". Are you really going to deny that to me because there is an "observable reality" that is different from my preference?

Are you going to lose your shit, call my boss and try to get me fired when I call you Michael because it's what's written down for everyone to see?

I think it's pretty clear that other people's preference for nicknames (or gender pronouns) are not a burden on you and your insistance to call people by the wrong name (or gender) is for some other reason. That was my point. This isn't about trans people causing undue burden on you.

Re: A backlash against gender ideology is starting in universities

#326

Post by kerkeslager »

noobermin wrote: post #213

>“shut the fuck up, TERF” (trans-exclusionary radical feminist, a slur) I stopped reading there. The protestors are framed as crazy and insane but TERF is a slur, there's no "opinion" marker on the article, it's pretty clear the author is coming from a biased perspective although framed as objective. When they can't even start the article of a controversial topic with even a weak attempt at objectivity I know enough…

Why don't you quote the whole sentence there?

> A flyer with an image of a gun and text reading “shut the fuck up, terf” (trans-exclusionary radical feminist, a slur) was circulating.

Re: A backlash against gender ideology is starting in universities

#327

Post by f154hfds »

I can't imagine what this debate must feel like to someone who grew up in the 50's, 60's and 70's. Until 10 years ago gay marriage wasn't official policy of Obama or Clinton or I believe the majority of the Democratic party. The pace is dizzying.

It feels like a race to the bottom, but I don't know where the bottom even is. Without push back this could spell the end of women's sports, women's prisons - heck, pretty much all institutions for women (except natal/health related) are facing an existential crisis over this. Women's sports are the most obvious. Why would a woman participate in the highest level of competition if she has no chance of success no matter what she does because she was born with XX chromosomes? One transgender athlete in the meet is one thing. What happens when gold, silver and bronze are all taken away? Of all our recent societal enlightenments this one seems most ill-fated. Trans activists should be able to foresee this eventuality and realize it's a bridge too far.

At the end of the day, we live in a culture where identity self-actualization is the paramount freedom without which one is considered oppressed. My question is really where do we settle out? Where are the boundaries that we recognize as a society are put there for our own protection? What happens when one person's self-actualization is in direct conflict with another's? When one group's (cis women) is in conflict with another's (trans women)?

Re: A backlash against gender ideology is starting in universities

#328

Post by delecti »

TimTheTinker wrote: post #230
smoldesu wrote: post #181

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This was ironically one of the things that was hardest about coming out as gay, for me. Nobody ever treated me the same way again. I was either uncomfortably praised or silently judged, with practically no in-between. Suffice to say, my sexuality is on a need-to-know basis, now.

It's weird to me that sexuality and identity are so intertwined. Why should someone "come out" as anything? (I know a lot of people "come out" as various things in a mere bid for attention... I'll leave that issue aside.) If I knew someone casually for a while who never talked about his/her sexuality, but one day they said "I never said this before, but I'm a heterosexual", I'd certainly feel awkward about it. Why di…

It's because it was ostracized for so long. If most of society is telling you that something is wrong with you, then you'll seek out other people who share that trait and develop a sense of community with them. It's normal to identify with your community.

Re: A backlash against gender ideology is starting in universities

#329

Post by MeinBlutIstBlau »

zwieback wrote: post #13

I think the courts are the right place for this battle, some fundamental free speech rights for both sides need to be enforced. I didn't think this would the necessary in academia but with universities turning into service industries it seems inevitable.

As an adult return student in college currently, while I could engage in "free speech," the college is also free to expel me for creating a hostile environment for my views (I'm speaking generally here).

Everybody hates Illinois Nazi's. But if a group them sprouted up at your school, can you really say it's fair freedom of speech-wise to shut them down at a publicly funded institution? No you can't. Not only that, but instructors can at whim grade you based on if they like you as opposed to legitimately getting good grades.

Ultimately it just creates a system to be gamed by those wise enough to survive it. It's never been about education in the US. It's always been about "who can navigate the waters without getting labeled."

Re: A backlash against gender ideology is starting in universities

#330

Post by plank_time »

caeril wrote: post #302
drenvuk wrote: post #268

Can someone please tell me how important this topic based on the amount of news time and eyeballs it attracts relative to the number of people that it affects? The numbers I can find for US citizens is: 0.6% or 1,988,696 out 331,449,281 of people total for the entirety of the US in 2021. > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_demographics_of_the_Unite... In the UK where the featured article took place the latest poll I…

There's a large segment of the population that feels actively threatened by trans rights. The two primary components are: 1. Parents and sexual violence victims concerned about the non-falsifiability of trans-identification and the related concerns of sexual predators claiming an identity they don't actually have to gain access to private spaces of women and girls. 2. Feminists (TERFs) who believe being a woman is a…

TERF is a pejorative term, I wouldn’t use it unless you are trying to attack feminists.
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