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China lands rover on Mars

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Re: China lands rover on Mars

#321

Post by Ziggy_Zaggy »

BobbyJo wrote: post #309
kstenerud wrote: post #188

It seems pretty silly to get all up in arms about copying other peoples' stuff. That's how humanity has innovated throughout the ages: Copy what works and innovate on top of it. None of our inventions arise from a vacuum. Cars are still as wide as Roman chariots for good reason. Power transfer uses the same base principles as were in play during the dawn of steam engines and before. Energy conversion has been an iter…

> Copy what works and innovate on top of it I think the main gripe with China's process is that they don't do the latter. They produce replica's then herald them as original works of the mightiest country on the planet. Everyone everywhere steals, but China does it with a little more 'F-U' than most countries, and tend to use what they steal to oppress. I spent a few years working for a defense contractor out of coll…

This response it exactly correct. Thanks for taking the time to spell this out.

Re: China lands rover on Mars

#322

Post by dang »

walrus01 wrote: post #192
dang wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Please don't lead with flamebait. You couldn't do anything more destructive to a thread like this. You're far from the only one doing it, but it's dismaying to see from such an established account. Please don't. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

It wasn't intended to flame anything, the first part was supposed to be humorous, the ending part clearly says there's historical good and rational reasons to use a proven design.

I believe you but we have to moderate these things by their effects, not intent.

https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&sor...

Re: China lands rover on Mars

#323

Post by rlonn »

throwaway051521 wrote: post #251
kstenerud wrote: post #188

It seems pretty silly to get all up in arms about copying other peoples' stuff. That's how humanity has innovated throughout the ages: Copy what works and innovate on top of it. None of our inventions arise from a vacuum. Cars are still as wide as Roman chariots for good reason. Power transfer uses the same base principles as were in play during the dawn of steam engines and before. Energy conversion has been an iter…

Is there any evidence that there's copying going on? I tried searching online, but couldn't find any. A few months ago I saw people claiming that the leading choice in the contest to name the rover was "Perseverance"[1], which wasn't actually true (see the comment about how 弘毅 is translated). There seems to be a lot of misinformation out there these days. [1] https://www.reddit.com/r/spacex/comments/konwyz/starship_s…

The rover has wheels, right? That's clearly copying previous efforts.

Re: China lands rover on Mars

#324

Post by m4rtink »

bserge wrote: post #169
chmod600 wrote: post #146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Would it help to have a burrowing probe? What are the subterranean conditions like?

I believe an airship would have higher chances of survival. If the surface has been that hot for thousands/millions of years, why would the underground be different? Unless you go really deep (hundreds of KM?), which is impossible.

IIRC some designs have an airship with probe on a long cable. The airship stays in the relatively cool upper layers of the atmosphere and periodically lowers the probe to study the surface for a short while.

That way you can cool the probe down every time you reel it in instead of making it withstand the hellish temperatures for extended amounts of time.

Re: China lands rover on Mars

#325

Post by m4rtink »

nabla9 wrote: post #173
chmod600 wrote: post #125

Does anyone have plans to land on Venus? Is that way more difficult or something?

Russians landed 10 probes successfully and took pictures and did the science. Venera 13 lander survived for 127 minutes. You can shield the probes from sulfuric acid and pressure, but it's hard to keep electronics cool for longer than few hours. Mean surface temperature is 464 °C. (867 °F). Doing science experiments is even harder.

You could use active cooling but the energy requirements would be immense, as you would need to make the heat sink even hotter than the 464+ C atmosphere.

You would basically have to use a crazy high temperature reactor like those envisioned for project Pluto, but setup to somehow produce useful work instead of propulsion, to get the necessary power needed to reach sane cold side temperatures on your heat pump.

Re: China lands rover on Mars

#326

Post by rland »

BobbyJo wrote: post #309
kstenerud wrote: post #188

It seems pretty silly to get all up in arms about copying other peoples' stuff. That's how humanity has innovated throughout the ages: Copy what works and innovate on top of it. None of our inventions arise from a vacuum. Cars are still as wide as Roman chariots for good reason. Power transfer uses the same base principles as were in play during the dawn of steam engines and before. Energy conversion has been an iter…

> Copy what works and innovate on top of it I think the main gripe with China's process is that they don't do the latter. They produce replica's then herald them as original works of the mightiest country on the planet. Everyone everywhere steals, but China does it with a little more 'F-U' than most countries, and tend to use what they steal to oppress. I spent a few years working for a defense contractor out of coll…

America literally did exactly what China is doing now, when it was the upstart and Britain was the industrial powerhouse of the world. Americans stole British IP and built an industrial economy with that technology. All the while implementing perhaps the largest and cruelest human trafficking operation ever conceived.

How are all the other countries, who follow US IP laws and trade regulations, pulling themselves out of poverty? Are they doing it as fast as China is?

It is always in the interest of a more developed country to set IP terms, because they own the patents and the manufacturing processes, and they can advantage themselves at the expense of everyone else. Look at how Mexico fared in NAFTA, or what the terms of the TPP were. All of this is completely beside the point of who has a more "fair" or more "just" regime. China did what they needed to do to develop their economy: steal American IP and ignore American trade laws and patents.

Re: China lands rover on Mars

#327

Post by BobbyJo »

rland wrote: post #326
BobbyJo wrote: post #309

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Copy what works and innovate on top of it I think the main gripe with China's process is that they don't do the latter. They produce replica's then herald them as original works of the mightiest country on the planet. Everyone everywhere steals, but China does it with a little more 'F-U' than most countries, and tend to use what they steal to oppress. I spent a few years working for a defense contractor out of coll…

America literally did exactly what China is doing now, when it was the upstart and Britain was the industrial powerhouse of the world. Americans stole British IP and built an industrial economy with that technology. All the while implementing perhaps the largest and cruelest human trafficking operation ever conceived. How are all the other countries, who follow US IP laws and trade regulations, pulling themselves out…

First, you can't compare the wealth an advantage IP represents now to what it was before the 1960s. It's a ridiculous comparison when you look at the amount of economic activity that depended on it.

Second, the list of underdeveloped countries that care about US IP laws is non-existent. The US doesn't care. It only matters when the country is wealthy and advanced enough to do something with the IP that it matters.

Third, I don't see how it being in the US's interest to protect their IP makes protecting the IP wrong.

Forth, you've rebutted none of my actual points, and ignored my last sentence.

Re: China lands rover on Mars

#328

Post by justicezyx »

haram_masala wrote: post #47
justicezyx wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I'm not super happy about how they treat their own people Chinese people are certainly treated better from CCP than American people are treated. Look at the hate crimes targeted at Asian...

I don’t think the Uigyurs would agree with that statement. Particularly the ones that are being raped and re-educated in camps.

Well I indeed know people who are through the reeducation camp, they are certainly changed, for a better mental and economical status. They were practicing some weirdass Sharia laws to their families and friends.

As for the Xinjiang reeducation news, they were originated from Adrian Zenz and a small group of reporters from Australia, who both have never put feet on Xinjiang. How much the whole Xinjiang incident is propaganda, and how much reality, I don't know.

Re: China lands rover on Mars

#329

Post by tomrod »

dandelany wrote: post #150
tomrod wrote: post #136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most of the dust is extremely sharp, not having water break up the edges.

No it’s not - aeolian processes do a fine job of weathering it. It is very fine dust, and somewhat toxic, but it is not sharp like lunar regolith is. https://medium.com/@adammann930/the-problem-with-dust-on-the...

Today I learned! I thought it was effectively lunar regolith.

Re: China lands rover on Mars

#330

Post by porphyra »

zoomablemind wrote: post #305
porphyra wrote: post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It has a ground penetrating radar to see stuff 100 m below the ground, something that no other Mars rover has done before. I think that's pretty cool!

> ...ground penetrating radar to see stuff 100 m below the ground... Is this type of survey also possible from the orbiter? Though it would not be as hi-def as from the land level, but more extensive coverage.

I read that ground penetrating radar only really works well if it is really close to the ground. It also only gets a thin slice of the ground so you need a rover that can move in order to image a volume.
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