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My Life as an Undocumented Immigrant

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Re: My Life as an Undocumented Immigrant

#321

Post by gopi »

I am a legal immigrant and waited years to get my Greencard. The situation is so worse now for a new immigrant (h1b) from india (or china) it takes 7-10 years to get greencard and 5 more years to get citizenship.

The immigration system needs reform. We need a point based system like Canada and work permit for low skill farm jobs like that in the middle east/singapore. But this does not mean giving general amnesty to llegals. That will just encourage more to cross the border illegally.

I agree with the republicans - We need a strong border and a legal immigration reform.

Re: My Life as an Undocumented Immigrant

#322

Post by haberman »

wnight wrote: post #311
haberman wrote: post #280

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> shows (to me) a form of malice, spite, arrogance, and a complex of superiority. Here's why: you already believe that this person is a criminal, that all illegal immigrants are criminals and should be treated as such. What bothers me about your attitude is that you invoke a sense of moral superiority to defend what is nothing more than breaking the rules to get ahead. It shows more compassion for the people who will…

> Ok, I've let this slide up until now, but this is a very poor attempt at implying that America has been a primary perpetrator of crimes throughout history or has somehow obtained success by "stealing" it from others. It's true. If we applied the same rules to countries that we do to the mafia, you'd be a criminal conspirator in an agency that has routinely used murder for control and profit. Did you go to an Americ…

> It's true. If we applied the same rules to countries that we do to the mafia, you'd be a criminal conspirator in an agency that has routinely used murder for control and profit.

And your hero Che Guevara?

Re: My Life as an Undocumented Immigrant

#323

Post by freshfunk »

wnight wrote: post #312
freshfunk wrote: post #292

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Again, you're just reframing the argument in order to make it convenient for yourself. I understand your position and, philosophically, it's an interesting one to take. But if you take your position to the extreme then there should be NO concept of citizenry. It's all fine and dandy as a theoretical concept but has no bearing (or utility) on the real world. In the world, we are citizens of nations and citizenship is…

> if you take your position to the extreme then there should be NO concept of citizenry. Yeah. It's just what the first people to go somewhere say when someone else tries to join them. "Take off, we first settlers don't want you here." We don't recognize first-posters as owning the thread, or (except in the USA) first-solvers owning the formula, so why should we recognize first-squatters owning the land? > It's all f…

> At least today's undocumented immigrants live in peace.

Did you RTA? The whole article was about how he lives in constant fear. OTOH, my parents were legal immigrants and have no guilt over the british colonists who took this land over from the native americans. Same goes for me.

You can stick your head in the sand but, at the end of the day, you still have to obey the laws of the country you're in. Even if you join a cult or live in the remote mountains of Montana, you're still bound by law. This is true for you and for people who come here illegally.

Re: My Life as an Undocumented Immigrant

#324

Post by freshfunk »

dennisgorelik wrote: post #305
freshfunk wrote: post #303

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How is it not fair? Because you say so? Because you disagree with the system? Is it more fair to have a free for all where people sneak in? It's convenient to say something is not fair as justification to break all the rules.

By default discrimination is not fair. Sometimes discrimination is justified (e.g. thieves are sent to prison because they harm society). But what is the justification for discriminating immigrants?

While you understand the definition of discrimination, you fail to understand the concept and it's legal use.

Discrimination, in the legal sense, says that there should be no prejudice against people by race, gender, sexual orientation, disability and other protected groups.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protected_class

But legal status is _NOT_ a protected group.

Here's another way to look at it:

Criminals lose rights. They lose the right to roam freely in public among many other freedoms. Some of them lose the right to vote. By your definition, we discriminate against criminals since we treat them differently than we do law-abiding citizens.

Do you disagree with the disparity in this treatment?

Many people see illegal immigrants as breaking the law. Ergo the use of the word "illegal." Many people see them as criminals.

Ergo, differential treatment (or discrimination) is justified.

Even outside of these concepts, discrimination happens all the time. When people apply for a job, the smarter, more qualified candidate is discriminated against lesser candidates. Is this not fair?

When the NFL drafts certain players over others, that's discrimination. Is this not fair?

Anytime a person is chosen over another, you have discrimination. Your assertion that it is inherently unfair is wrong.

Re: My Life as an Undocumented Immigrant

#325

Post by freshfunk »

gcb wrote: post #320
freshfunk wrote: post #293

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I sympathize but, ultimately, do not find your argument compelling. Mexico isn't the only poor country in the world. They just happen to be the one that's closest to the US. When my parents legally immigrated here, South Korea was a poor nation. Look at the history of US immigration and you'll see that this is a pattern (eg. Irish and Italians in the 1900s to modern day immigrants from Africa and Asia). I'm from LA s…

I don't think that anyone not from l.a. understand the illegal immigration thing going on here. it's difficult to give the full image. I'm living here for more than a year and am still shocked that there are neighborhoods that only speak their native language and are virtually paperless... even though some of them goes to tijuana every other weekend. I'm here legally and still avoid going to mexico to avoid the hassl…

I didn't meant to imply that. I just meant what I said which was that I'm well-aware of the illegal immigrant situation since I've lived in the middle of it.

Re: My Life as an Undocumented Immigrant

#326

Post by freshfunk »

ido wrote: post #315
freshfunk wrote: post #294

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you think the privilege of an H1B is "indentured servitude", it seems that immigration is not for you. I don't expect to enter a foreign country and immediately have all the same worker rights as a citizen of that country.

If you think the privilege of an H1B is "indentured servitude", it seems that immigration is not for you. Funny that you say that, I have been an immigrant for almost 7 years now in the European Union (where it's significantly easier than in the US). I am educated, healthy, young, have no criminal record and as a programmer I earn a significantly higher than average salary (and therefor pay significantly higher than…

Do they? Just the other day I met an entrepreneur who was not American (either Canadian or European) who's able to work here on a "extraordinary ability" visa. He wasn't under an H1B and he's starting his own company.

My original point is that H1B is not a right, it's a privilege. Even though you're awesome (by your own account), I fail to see why you're owed anything.

Re: My Life as an Undocumented Immigrant

#327

Post by freshfunk »

wnight wrote: post #310
freshfunk wrote: post #304

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well 1) that is the rule of law. It's not just the case for the US but many other modern nations in this world. 2) Being a citizen doesn't just have benefits but also responsibilities. This is why we pledge allegiance. At age 21 I had to register for the civil service. That means that if my country goes to war and I'm drafted then I must fight and possibly die for my country. An illegal immigrant will not be drafted.…

> That means that if my country goes to war and I'm drafted then I must fight and possibly die for my country. Societies that raise slave armies aren't free. Or, did I miss where you'd be able to abstain if, for instance, you knew the whole thing was a farce? > Being a citizen doesn't just have benefits but also responsibilities. And consequences. If you're a US taxpayer (one of about 200M) you've recently paid for t…

The USA is not responsible for the citizens of Mexico and to imply that they are is actually insulting to Mexico. It says that they can't take care of their own citizens.

Everything else you said is simply biased slander on your part.

Re: My Life as an Undocumented Immigrant

#328

Post by ido »

freshfunk wrote: post #326
ido wrote: post #315

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you think the privilege of an H1B is "indentured servitude", it seems that immigration is not for you. Funny that you say that, I have been an immigrant for almost 7 years now in the European Union (where it's significantly easier than in the US). I am educated, healthy, young, have no criminal record and as a programmer I earn a significantly higher than average salary (and therefor pay significantly higher than…

Do they? Just the other day I met an entrepreneur who was not American (either Canadian or European) who's able to work here on a "extraordinary ability" visa. He wasn't under an H1B and he's starting his own company. My original point is that H1B is not a right, it's a privilege. Even though you're awesome (by your own account), I fail to see why you're owed anything.

I'm not owed anything, I'm arguing that it's in the country's interest to attract skilled labor (which many other western countries like Australia, Canada & New Zealand do with their vastly easier immigration policies).

Re: My Life as an Undocumented Immigrant

#329

Post by freshfunk »

dennisgorelik wrote: post #306
freshfunk wrote: post #304

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well 1) that is the rule of law. It's not just the case for the US but many other modern nations in this world. 2) Being a citizen doesn't just have benefits but also responsibilities. This is why we pledge allegiance. At age 21 I had to register for the civil service. That means that if my country goes to war and I'm drafted then I must fight and possibly die for my country. An illegal immigrant will not be drafted.…

1) So basically your explanation goes like that: "Discrimination against immigrants is justified, because it's a law and other countries discriminate even worse than the US". I hoped for somewhat better reasoning than that. If you take "it's a law and it must stay unchanged" principle to the heart, then you would be dead by now killed as invader by one of American-Indian tribes. 2) "Opening borders to everyone" has v…

It's two-fold. On one hand, it's the law. On the other hand, I consider it a fair law. Pointing to other countries was simply to show that the US isn't alone in this thinking.

It has everything to do with opening the borders because if illegal immigrants have all the same rights as citizens then you're essentially inviting every immigrant to come to the US.

Of anyone, I would think you understand that our physical borders does not do a great job of preventing illegal immigrants from entering the country.

You seem to pick and choose your literal arguments from your theoretical ones.

Re: My Life as an Undocumented Immigrant

#330

Post by wnight »

freshfunk wrote: post #323
wnight wrote: post #312

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> if you take your position to the extreme then there should be NO concept of citizenry. Yeah. It's just what the first people to go somewhere say when someone else tries to join them. "Take off, we first settlers don't want you here." We don't recognize first-posters as owning the thread, or (except in the USA) first-solvers owning the formula, so why should we recognize first-squatters owning the land? > It's all f…

> At least today's undocumented immigrants live in peace. Did you RTA? The whole article was about how he lives in constant fear. OTOH, my parents were legal immigrants and have no guilt over the british colonists who took this land over from the native americans. Same goes for me. You can stick your head in the sand but, at the end of the day, you still have to obey the laws of the country you're in. Even if you joi…

No, at least today's immigrant is living at peace with you - not killing you for your place in line, as our country's founders did for their place in line. I feel an honest refugee would be a better neighbor than someone who'd hold the lack of paperwork over someone's head.

You really don't have much to complain about.

As for law though, and obeying it, no. No, you don't have to obey the laws of the land you're in. In fact, there are times no good person would do so. It's just rules other people made up, not 'right'.

You're right I can't change the law but I can undermine it - make it easier to break and escape punishment for. Waste resources chasing ghosts instead of waging war and evicting the needy.

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