My Life as an Undocumented Immigrant • Hacker News Board

Re: My Life as an Undocumented Immigrant

#311

Post by wnight » Fri, Jun 24, 2011, 8:39 AM UTC

haberman wrote: post #280

coryl wrote: post #231

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, there might just be a difference in the way we see things. Its comments like these that bug me: I started this thread by arguing that people brought here as children deserve more leniency. Obviously, we don't hold children to the same standard as adults. However, the fact that its not an implicit belief (to give a child benefit of the doubt) and has to be explicitly stated by you shows (to me) a form of malice,…

> shows (to me) a form of malice, spite, arrogance, and a complex of superiority. Here's why: you already believe that this person is a criminal, that all illegal immigrants are criminals and should be treated as such. What bothers me about your attitude is that you invoke a sense of moral superiority to defend what is nothing more than breaking the rules to get ahead. It shows more compassion for the people who will…

> Ok, I've let this slide up until now, but this is a very poor attempt at implying that America has been a primary perpetrator of crimes throughout history or has somehow obtained success by "stealing" it from others.

It's true. If we applied the same rules to countries that we do to the mafia, you'd be a criminal conspirator in an agency that has routinely used murder for control and profit.

Did you go to an American public school?

Re: My Life as an Undocumented Immigrant

#312

Post by wnight » Fri, Jun 24, 2011, 8:46 AM UTC

freshfunk wrote: post #292

dennisgorelik wrote: post #205

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Instead of comparing illegal immigrants against legal immigrants, focus on comparing illegal immigrants against citizens who got their privileges by birth. Share with us why immigrants are discriminated against and if this discrimination is fair.

Again, you're just reframing the argument in order to make it convenient for yourself. I understand your position and, philosophically, it's an interesting one to take. But if you take your position to the extreme then there should be NO concept of citizenry. It's all fine and dandy as a theoretical concept but has no bearing (or utility) on the real world. In the world, we are citizens of nations and citizenship is…

> if you take your position to the extreme then there should be NO concept of citizenry.

Yeah. It's just what the first people to go somewhere say when someone else tries to join them. "Take off, we first settlers don't want you here."

We don't recognize first-posters as owning the thread, or (except in the USA) first-solvers owning the formula, so why should we recognize first-squatters owning the land?

> It's all fine and dandy as a theoretical concept but has no bearing (or utility) on the real world.

Not at all. The concept of doing whatever you want is firmly established in the real world. Your adoptive countrymen weren't welcomed here (or at least, not in much of 'here'). They came by force and trick, murdering and stealing.

At least today's undocumented immigrants live in peace.

Re: My Life as an Undocumented Immigrant

#313

Post by wnight » Fri, Jun 24, 2011, 8:51 AM UTC

fastfinner wrote: post #96

starwed wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I just find it weird that everyone regards becoming a citizen by birth as so much fairer than becoming a citizen by sneaking in.

Oh on a philosophical level it is quite unfair. It's not fair at all that all humans are not regarded as equals. It's really unfair that I should be withheld from visiting or living on a piece of the planet because there happens the be a group of people on it that made a "nation" and the "nation" has invisible "borders" and the "borders" are by "law" not penetrable by people from my "nation". But such is the case. If…

> But such is the case. If Jose or anyone else wants to change this inherent unfairness they can do that.

Many undocumented immigrants are. They're ignoring it.

And, if you do catch and deport them, at great cost, you're just cutting one more local job. Congrats.

Re: My Life as an Undocumented Immigrant

#314

Post by wnight » Fri, Jun 24, 2011, 8:57 AM UTC

rubashov wrote: post #190

haberman wrote: post #28

I have no beef with this guy who was basically forced into breaking the law before he could have responsibility for his actions. But overall I just feel that the compassion about immigration is misplaced. I don't understand why all the pro-immigration people say "look at these poor undocumented immigrants -- we should make life better for them." I think the people we should have compassion for are the people who are…

"look at these poor undocumented immigrants -- we should make life better for them." What I really don't get is how incapable the bleeding hearts are of understanding that immigration hurts the weakest Americans. Wages are driven down. See that crew of criminal alien hispanic landscapers? See the unemployed American blacks in your city? Think really hard and try to connect the dots... This dynamic applies well farthe…

> See that crew of criminal alien hispanic landscapers? See the unemployed American blacks in your city? Think really hard and try to connect the dots...

Repressive government policies. Exactly.

We're supposed to believe the free market is efficient and useful, but that free people are inefficient and problematic.

Re: My Life as an Undocumented Immigrant

#315

Post by ido » Fri, Jun 24, 2011, 9:08 AM UTC

freshfunk wrote: post #294

ido wrote: post #245

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is a legal system and many people every year try to go through that system like my parents did. I see illegal immigrants as "cutting in line" and I see nothing fair about it. The problem is that if you are not a student there is basically no way to legally immigrate except: 1. Marrying an american 2. Indentured servitude via H1-B (hard to get, and if you leave your job/get fired you have to find a new job in tw…

If you think the privilege of an H1B is "indentured servitude", it seems that immigration is not for you. I don't expect to enter a foreign country and immediately have all the same worker rights as a citizen of that country.

    If you think the privilege of an H1B is 
    "indentured servitude", it seems that 
    immigration is not for you.

Funny that you say that, I have been an immigrant for almost 7 years now in the European Union (where it's significantly easier than in the US).

I am educated, healthy, young, have no criminal record and as a programmer I earn a significantly higher than average salary (and therefor pay significantly higher than average taxes).

I can say with a straight face that probably any country I choose to live in will benefit from me being there, so why would you want to keep skilled people like me out?

Re: My Life as an Undocumented Immigrant

#316

Post by wnight » Fri, Jun 24, 2011, 9:11 AM UTC

exit wrote: post #228

RandyHelzerman, everything you contribute to this site is quietly being made "dead". no one can see what you're saying unless they have the "show dead" feature enabled. in any case no one can vote on your contributions any more. RandyHelzerman 7 hours ago | link [dead] What really has to sink in is that there are at least 11 million people in this guy's situation. I can't think of a single example in history of 11 mi…

Thank you for pointing this out.

I find the secret ban system to be odious.

Re: My Life as an Undocumented Immigrant

#317

Post by rplacd » Fri, Jun 24, 2011, 9:59 AM UTC

chaostheory wrote: post #237

lupatus wrote: post #166

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The USA has an orderly and, from what I understand from my immigrant friends and coworkers, not too difficult immigration process already. The meritocracy is here already. The article's author decided to cheat the system and be a criminal.

I had to wait over 8 years to get my citizenship and wade through tons of bureaucracy and paperwork. In my experience it was anything but easy. It took a letter to the governor of my state, asking for help so that I can vote for him; to get things moving. Suddenly everything magically fell into place within two weeks of writing that letter. It's probably only 'easy' for Canadians.

In all seriousness, though, would you recommend anyone else do that after being able to prove you've "done your time" in the system?

Re: My Life as an Undocumented Immigrant

#318

Post by exit » Fri, Jun 24, 2011, 11:44 AM UTC

haberman wrote: post #291

coryl wrote: post #250

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thanks. They weren't intended to be insults for insults sake, but reflect how I see, as what I believe to be, his perspective of immigrants as criminals. To say something like "immigrant children broke the law, but since they're kids, we should be lenient when we consider punishing them", carries a pass of judgement that I perceive to be as a statement on whom is more righteous or more privileged. I don't feel like a…

> To say something like "immigrant children broke the law, but since they're kids, we should be lenient when we consider punishing them", carries a pass of judgement that I perceive to be as a statement on whom is more righteous or more privileged. If you came home and a homeless person was sleeping in your bed, would you consider it an intolerable passing of judgement to say they shouldn't have done that and you wil…

if the homeless person was a child, yeah it would be an intolerable passing of judgement.

and if i had a huge house with more than enough space, and one day discovered that a homeless child had moved into a tiny space a few decades ago, contributed extensively to maintaining that space, and is now an adult, i would say it's completely intolerable for me to evict them at that point.

Re: My Life as an Undocumented Immigrant

#319

Post by chaostheory » Fri, Jun 24, 2011, 2:59 PM UTC

rplacd wrote: post #317

chaostheory wrote: post #237

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I had to wait over 8 years to get my citizenship and wade through tons of bureaucracy and paperwork. In my experience it was anything but easy. It took a letter to the governor of my state, asking for help so that I can vote for him; to get things moving. Suddenly everything magically fell into place within two weeks of writing that letter. It's probably only 'easy' for Canadians.

In all seriousness, though, would you recommend anyone else do that after being able to prove you've "done your time" in the system?

Recommend writing a letter to your governor or local politician? Yes.

Dismantle the bureaucracy that makes immigration so difficult? Yes. I believe in free markets.

Re: My Life as an Undocumented Immigrant

#320

Post by gcb » Fri, Jun 24, 2011, 3:49 PM UTC

freshfunk wrote: post #293

jacobolus wrote: post #248

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem with your “cutting in line is bad” line is that people’s choice to immigrate without papers has almost nothing to do with “lines” or policies or lawbreaking, and everything to do with the much more powerfully compelling economic organization of the world (and particularly North America). 1) United States agriculture absolutely depends on a certain amount of unskilled labor to function, for which the Unite…

I sympathize but, ultimately, do not find your argument compelling. Mexico isn't the only poor country in the world. They just happen to be the one that's closest to the US. When my parents legally immigrated here, South Korea was a poor nation. Look at the history of US immigration and you'll see that this is a pattern (eg. Irish and Italians in the 1900s to modern day immigrants from Africa and Asia). I'm from LA s…

I don't think that anyone not from l.a. understand the illegal immigration thing going on here. it's difficult to give the full image.

I'm living here for more than a year and am still shocked that there are neighborhoods that only speak their native language and are virtually paperless... even though some of them goes to tijuana every other weekend. I'm here legally and still avoid going to mexico to avoid the hassle.