Apple Disabling 'Sign in with Apple' for Epic Games on September 11 • Hacker News Board

Re: Apple Disabling 'Sign in with Apple' for Epic Games on September 11

#321

Post by eigen » Wed, Sep 09, 2020, 9:23 PM UTC

Majromax wrote: post #267

ctroein89 wrote: post #150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Microsoft and Playstation also allow for cross-platform play Sony explicitly didn't allow for cross-play until 2 years ago [ https://kotaku.com/sony-is-finally-allowing-cross-play-on-th... ], even though it was technically possible before then [ https://www.engadget.com/2017-06-24-rocket-league-cross-netw... ]. In fact, the only reason Sony opened up to cross-play is due to pressure to stay competitive with rival p…

> On the other hand, if argument is that it's easy enough to switch from Playstation to Xbox, then how is that different from buying a new phone? Rather easily: players can own two consoles with nothing more than the hardware investment, and there's a long social experience of dedicated gamers doing just this. Owning two phones, however, requires two separate cell/data plans and duplication of every other regular-use…

> Rather easily: players can own two consoles with nothing more than the hardware investment, and there's a long social experience of dedicated gamers doing just this. Owning two phones, however, requires two separate cell/data plans and duplication of every other regular-use app (productivity, e-mail, etc.)

multiple console platforms require multiple accounts with separate friends lists, paid online access, save games, etc. with WiFi calling, separate cell/data plans are not necessary. [1]

> The core distinction is that a console is a device, whereas iOS/Android is a platform.

a console gaming platform certainly seems like a platform. games, friends list with chat, applications such as video streaming, etc.

[1] https://thedroidguy.com/trick-drop-cell-phone-plan-completel...

Re: Apple Disabling 'Sign in with Apple' for Epic Games on September 11

#322

Post by nathanvanfleet » Wed, Sep 09, 2020, 9:23 PM UTC

aboringusername wrote: post #6

This is something many people feared might happen, and now, it's become a reality: Apple can, at will, remove your entire foundation or business, your (their) customers and your existence on iOS is just gone. Apple is a company that needs to be brought down a peg or two, it's far too 'valuable' in terms of its market worth, and needs a huge kick up the ass as Microsoft once had to show them some respect. And the EU w…

Poor little startup Epic games. We are really worried for them on this one. Not sure what they will do about this. Victims as they are. Powerless.

Re: Apple Disabling 'Sign in with Apple' for Epic Games on September 11

#323

Post by dmitriid » Wed, Sep 09, 2020, 9:24 PM UTC

gorkish wrote: post #232

thdrdt wrote: post #139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Then they should first fight it before breaking it.

Sure they could; but I find it kind of hard to criticize their strategy of getting a hundred million people to commiserate with them before they try. Even better that Apple has decided to act like a big ugly baby about it; they must be over the moon. I've owned and used Apple products continuously for over 30 years, and I'm not ashamed to say that I am rooting HARD for Epic on this. Apple doesn't give a shit about in…

> Even better that Apple has decided to act like a big ugly baby about it

You mean, Apple, like any grown-up company would do in their place, has rightfully shown Epic the door? Google kicked Fortnite from Play Store for the same reason. And had they tried this against consoles (where devs also pay 30%), they'd be kicked out of the respective console forever.

What's a "non-cry-baby" reaction in your opinion?

Re: Apple Disabling 'Sign in with Apple' for Epic Games on September 11

#324

Post by DennisAleynikov » Wed, Sep 09, 2020, 9:24 PM UTC

an_opabinia wrote: post #300

fxtentacle wrote: post #205

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can't help but think that the whole thing is playing out exactly like Epic had hoped. After Apple kicked Fortnite from the iOS store, there was an outcry of people who had previously spent money on it through Apple's in-app purchases and now wanted a refund. Some of those users switched to playing Fortnite on a laptop or Android phone instead, but of course they were still using Sign in with Apple if they had origi…

I would speculate that the disappearance of Fortnite from the App Store is a net positive for game developers there. Fortnite sucks the air out of the room, as much as any #1 media property does to its category. Besides, making an Unreal Engine game for iOS hardly ever makes sense. Those are always crummy ports. You could argue Fortnite on mobile devices is itself a crummy port. Do we need more virtual joystick games…

you do realize Apple Park uses Unreal Engine in its AR map and many Unreal Engine games on iOS are the best in their class.

Metal + the Unreal shaders look wonderful almost 100% of the time

Re: Apple Disabling 'Sign in with Apple' for Epic Games on September 11

#325

Post by will4274 » Wed, Sep 09, 2020, 9:25 PM UTC

mythz wrote: post #60

Jaxkr wrote: post #3

I really hope this will damage Apple’s brand and platform... They enforce their TOS randomly and this will happen to smaller companies too. Hurts the consumer too. People will be locked out of their Epic accounts.

This wasn't some random ToS violation, this was a willful egregious violation done with subversion & malice to undermine the App Store's revenue model. I don't fault Apple for wanting to sever all ties with bad actors. > They enforce their TOS randomly and this will happen to smaller companies too. If their ToS is randomly enforced, which other App/Company violated the same terms as Epic which Apple chose to not enfo…

Amazon doesn't pay the 30% fee and violates the same terms by providing alternative payment providers in app. It's just that Apple is too scared to de-platform Amazon.

Remote activation is an irrelevant detail. Apps routinely active features remotely. It's the underlying violation that matters, not how it was enabled. That's just PR.

Re: Apple Disabling 'Sign in with Apple' for Epic Games on September 11

#326

Post by actuator » Wed, Sep 09, 2020, 9:26 PM UTC

aboringusername wrote: post #6

This is something many people feared might happen, and now, it's become a reality: Apple can, at will, remove your entire foundation or business, your (their) customers and your existence on iOS is just gone. Apple is a company that needs to be brought down a peg or two, it's far too 'valuable' in terms of its market worth, and needs a huge kick up the ass as Microsoft once had to show them some respect. And the EU w…

$5/10 billion seems too less for Apple, it will feel like a slap on the wrist for them. There has to be something concrete which forces them to open their platform.

No company owning a big general computing ecosystem should have this much disproportionate power.

I am glad that at least on a personal level I decided to diversify on my computing devices and just use their laptops now.

Re: Apple Disabling 'Sign in with Apple' for Epic Games on September 11

#327

Post by mcv » Wed, Sep 09, 2020, 9:26 PM UTC

danShumway wrote: post #91

jmpman wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Replace Apple’s iOS ecosystem with Microsoft’s Xbox, Sony’s PlayStation or Nintendo’s Switch. Either you destroy the console ecosystem by forcing them all to open up, or classify iOS as somehow different... or you leave them all to enforce their business agreements through mutually accepted legal term. If Epic doesn’t want a different agreement than Apple, they can negotiate alternative legal terms.

People should be careful drawing too many comparisons to consoles, because as someone who owns rooted consoles that run homebrew mods, I can attest that it's actually awesome and improves the user experience in about a dozen ways. My 3DS supports savestates & backups for games like Animal Crossing that let me maintain multiple towns at the same time, custom emulators that run my old Gameboy cartridge backups that I m…

I think any business model that relies on loss-leaders followed by lock-in is a bad business model. I hate it in printers, I hate it in phones, I hate it in computers. I'm not that big into consoles, but I suspect I'd hate it there too.

Re: Apple Disabling 'Sign in with Apple' for Epic Games on September 11

#328

Post by Dayshine » Wed, Sep 09, 2020, 9:26 PM UTC

drenvuk wrote: post #260

I don't get why on Hackernews anyone would ever defend Apple here. Regardless of whether they're right to do this if Epic wins their court case against them we stand to gain the most benefit. Apple's incredibly high walled garden is honestly the scariest thing for me. If I develop for windows I can simply distribute my application on my site easily. With Android I can tell people to download from F-Droid if necessary…

This community is dominated by people who work for unicorns, believe their company is almost a unicorn, or dream they could one day work for one.

As much as we deny it, companies only tend to get that big through anti-consumer behaviour, walled gardens, vendor lock-in, etc.

When your life's purpose revolves around the absolute power your dream requires, of course you will defend it. The fact that allowing other companies to behave this way makes it harder for you to do well is irrelevant, because you need that power for when you're in their place.

Re: Apple Disabling 'Sign in with Apple' for Epic Games on September 11

#329

Post by nathanvanfleet » Wed, Sep 09, 2020, 9:26 PM UTC

an_opabinia wrote: post #300

fxtentacle wrote: post #205

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can't help but think that the whole thing is playing out exactly like Epic had hoped. After Apple kicked Fortnite from the iOS store, there was an outcry of people who had previously spent money on it through Apple's in-app purchases and now wanted a refund. Some of those users switched to playing Fortnite on a laptop or Android phone instead, but of course they were still using Sign in with Apple if they had origi…

I would speculate that the disappearance of Fortnite from the App Store is a net positive for game developers there. Fortnite sucks the air out of the room, as much as any #1 media property does to its category. Besides, making an Unreal Engine game for iOS hardly ever makes sense. Those are always crummy ports. You could argue Fortnite on mobile devices is itself a crummy port. Do we need more virtual joystick games…

Especially if the alternatives to doing that means that the really large companies get exceptions that others do not. It's actually anti-competitive to have the App Store treating Epic favorably but not some new small company trying to compete.

Re: Apple Disabling 'Sign in with Apple' for Epic Games on September 11

#330

Post by procombo » Wed, Sep 09, 2020, 9:27 PM UTC

rapind wrote: post #208

danShumway wrote: post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And again, I'm sympathetic to that argument. But then don't argue that the iPhone is exactly the same. I don't think anyone can reasonably argue that Apple would stop producing the iPhone if sideloading was allowed. The smartphone market doesn't operate the same way as the console market.

I wonder if they could just make that an option on purchase? “Do you want us to enforce security and privacy or do you want to take that on yourself?”. I for one would opt for handling my own privacy on some of my own devices, but would definitely lock my kids down with Apple approved only option.

The more reasonable thing for Apple to do is to separate the code-signing services (platform security and privacy) with the App Store services (advertising and distribution). From my vantage point that would solve all these problems.