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Are you an anarchist? The answer may surprise you (2000)

theanarchistlibrary.org

321–330 of 839 posts

Re: Are you an anarchist? The answer may surprise you (2000)

#321

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Anarchism would mandate worker ownership of production, in the principle that ownership only ever derives from use. So factories and the like would be cooperatively owned, which makes it very very difficult for one individual to amass seriously outsized amounts of material resources. Combined with monetary policy that increases the velocity of money, the issue is fixed. As for personal property, under the principle t…

How would anarchism prevent tribes, warlords, organizations, armies and countries to form? If you leave people to do whatever they want that is what they do, as can be seen all throughout humanities history. A system which doesn't prevent people from doing that isn't a system, instead you'll get the first despot who is charismatic enough to unite the people.

Anarchism does not prevent tribes, warlords, organizations, or armies - it is the absence of such constructs.

If anyone is truly interested in applied anarchism, look to Somalia [0] and try to make a difference there. It's not all bad [1] [2], but I think there are many vastly superior alternatives.

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Somalia_(1991%E2%80...

[1] https://www.independent.org/pdf/working_papers/64_somalia.pd...

[2] https://www.independent.org/publications/article.asp?id=1861

Re: Are you an anarchist? The answer may surprise you (2000)

#322
post #235

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They are hierarchical. All primates are. Agriculture just revealed the need for a level of social structure no other species on Earth could achieve before. Regarding your follow-up question, maybe there are ways to achieve the same thing with a radically different social structure. The problem with social changes on this scale is that they are extremely disruptive. I'd rather reform and improve iteratively than rewri…

You should consider the issues of iteratively improving the same code base, pushing to prod for hundreds of years! Primate dominance hierarchies are weak, accountable, and constantly challenged, and not even necessary in humans which exhibit other behaviors depending on nature. As a consequences, hierarchy is not necessary in humans and not inherent. That being said, there are ways to move into anarchism that aren't…

I'd be curious where anarchism was applied on a large scale for more than a generation and the result was good.

Regarding the code analogy, I'd rather have a million pushes to prod than one huge force push that rewrites history;-)

Re: Are you an anarchist? The answer may surprise you (2000)

#323

I have never believed in anarchism, as I don't believe that "human beings are capable of behaving in a reasonable fashion without having to be forced to". But with COVID-19, I am seeing more proof than ever. In my country (but I guess it's the same in most, except perhaps some Nordic countries) bars, pubs and discos only reduce seating or close indoor spaces when forced to by law, in spite of the evidence that they c…

> it's not that "most politicians are selfish, egotistical swine", it's that many people are.

But you are saying this because you _agree_ with the politicians. You believe your preferred course of action is better than most peoples'. There are different viewpoints and pilosophies on what would work out best. There is disagreement on what course of action will get society through it and optimize future outcomes. It is egotistical, and poisoning the well, to call everyone else egotistical and selfish because they disagree with you and the politicians you support.

I think that people left to themselves _will_ disagree with one another, but will make decisions based on personal reasons, such as trying to get their business to survive, or to gain an advantage, or just because they don't particularly fear death, or any of thousands of other reasons. I may disagree with their decisions, but I'm careful about my own judgement of "what is rational" in someone else's circumstances, or even about my own knowledge of how they should optimally behave. There are too many politicians who believe they know how everyone else should do things. Certainty in knowledge is rarely real. The compromise is to let people decide for themselves.

Re: Are you an anarchist? The answer may surprise you (2000)

#324
post #308

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not a "some times" statement, it posits that humans are capable of living reasonably without being forced. That people sometimes behave unreasonably is a different matter.

Not really. It is very relevant. You only need someone to behave unreasonable even once to destroy multiple peoples lives. There are enough psychopaths in the world to fuck up any kind of system that's not completely based on separation of powers. I would posit that communism would probably also be pretty nice for most people, if it actually worked. So far it hasn't, and its pretty unrealistic that it ever will. That…

>Not really. It is very relevant. You only need someone to behave unreasonable even once to destroy multiple peoples lives

These things are true whether or not you believe humans are capable of living reasonably without being forced. Forcing people isn't stopping these psychopaths from destroying lives, and there's at least reason to believe it helps push them to action.

Re: Are you an anarchist? The answer may surprise you (2000)

#325

I have never believed in anarchism, as I don't believe that "human beings are capable of behaving in a reasonable fashion without having to be forced to". But with COVID-19, I am seeing more proof than ever. In my country (but I guess it's the same in most, except perhaps some Nordic countries) bars, pubs and discos only reduce seating or close indoor spaces when forced to by law, in spite of the evidence that they c…

Ok, I will tell you again.

In my community, people wear masks and social distance without being forced or told to. They do it for the same reason they wait in line at the bus.

Re: Are you an anarchist? The answer may surprise you (2000)

#326

“Anarchists are simply people who believe human beings are capable of behaving in a reasonable fashion without having to be forced to.” My anarchist sympathies want this to be true but this is a demonstrably false fairy tale. Just look at how we treat the planet and other living things in the presence of lawful order. Why would you assume that we would act righteously in the absence of law? It is painfully obvious th…

> Why would you assume that we would act righteously in the absence of law? It is painfully obvious that we would act much worse under anarchy.

Indeed, we know that (pace Rousseauian claims) man misbehaves not because some "system" has made him do so, but because he chooses to behave in such a manner, often knowing fully well he is choosing misbehavior. I think most of us, if we're honest, even if our moral understanding is variable, admit that we have acted in ways we knew were unjust before we acted.

To take this discussion further, government is a natural institution, i.e., one which follows from human nature and is natural to human societies for the sake of the common good (whether at the level of the family, the community, nation, the world, etc.). Part of what the common good entails is the administration of justice which requires an authority to administer that justice. In your example, if the problem is, say, industrial destruction of the common good that is our environment which we need to live (provided there exist better ways to secure the good produced by legitimate industry or legitimately permissible industry without that destruction), then the problem is a deficient law that fails to guard the common good.

Healthy criticism of authority is important because we know that those in authority are capable of choosing badly either through malice or incompetence. However, just at there is an excessive deferral and submissiveness some show toward authority that subordinates evidence and reason to authority, there is also a hostility to the very idea of authority. The latter is what rests at the bottom of anarchism. Anarchism in practice devolves into the rule of the powerful because no authority acts as a bulwark against power for the sake of the common good.

So on the one hand we have unbridled capitalism wherein the powerful dominate and exploit the weak, and on the other we have socialism which is the tyranny of government. Both converge at essentially the same point. In both cases, the powerful impose their "laws" on the populace for their own benefit. The empirical evidence corroborates as much and there is no sense in placing one's hope in either. The meat grinder of human existence on this earth is not to be abolished and the solution is not revolution. All revolutionaries are opportunists that prey on resentment, whether it is the product of envy or righteous anger, and parlay it into their own power. It also results in orgies of violence, dead bodies, and rivers of blood.

We are much better off engaging in good actions in our daily lives, many which may require pain, suffering, and sacrifice. All social action is the action of individuals for individuals. A society is only as good as its members. To many, that message isn't sexy. It lack the ecstatic grandeur or the messianic and eschatological satisfaction of what revolution seems to promise. They are like the woman at the well. There is a lesson to be learned here.

Re: Are you an anarchist? The answer may surprise you (2000)

#327
> If there’s a line to get on a crowded bus, do you wait your turn and refrain from elbowing your way past others even in the absence of police?

> If you answered “yes”, then you are used to acting like an anarchist!

First, many people actually try to force their way into crowded trains to get a good spot earlier in my experience. It's not exactly forceful, but also not friendly or waiting-in-line.

Just because I behave that way doesn't make me an anarchist, or "acting like one". There's a long way from following some practices to believing everyone would follow those if not forced to.

Re: Are you an anarchist? The answer may surprise you (2000)

#328

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The principle of voluntary association addresses these issues. If your needs and wants were actually considered, you would be more willing to pay taxes.

That is nothing more than wishful thinking. There is a reason unions has to force its members to pay dues and not just live on donations.

That is an example of voluntary association. They chose to gain the benefits of the union, they need to pay the dues.

Re: Are you an anarchist? The answer may surprise you (2000)

#329
post #308

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not really. It is very relevant. You only need someone to behave unreasonable even once to destroy multiple peoples lives. There are enough psychopaths in the world to fuck up any kind of system that's not completely based on separation of powers. I would posit that communism would probably also be pretty nice for most people, if it actually worked. So far it hasn't, and its pretty unrealistic that it ever will. That…

>Not really. It is very relevant. You only need someone to behave unreasonable even once to destroy multiple peoples lives These things are true whether or not you believe humans are capable of living reasonably without being forced. Forcing people isn't stopping these psychopaths from destroying lives, and there's at least reason to believe it helps push them to action.

In an organized society a psychopath can kill a few in a murder spree. In an unorganized society the psychopath can gather and organize a lot of thugs to loot and burn millions of homes. Has happened many times in history. I know which one I prefer.

The gun argument actually works here, if you ban good guys from organizing then all organizations will be bad ones. And an organized group of people always wins against unorganized groups.

Re: Are you an anarchist? The answer may surprise you (2000)

#330
post #309

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The anarchist argument is distribution of power. Take the example of pollution. Say you're an employee of a fossil fuel cooperative. Is it in your interest to continue polluting? Yes, because you after all own some of the ressources of that company and control it. So what is the anarchist solution? Well, it's in the interests of everyone to stop pollution, right? So you'd need people to come together, decide that pop…

So, the "anarchist solution" to the tragedy of the commons - the avoidance of centralized power - entails a majority of the population banding together and acting as some sort of agent, with the power to set rules and redistribute wealth? I see.

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