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Apple, Google ban location tracking in apps using their contact-tracing system

reuters.com

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Re: Apple, Google ban location tracking in apps using their contact-tracing system

#321

Post by coliveira »

bjz_ wrote: post #251
azinman2 wrote: post #239

I have to say, working at Apple and knowing all the hard work that goes into this and making sure your data stays private while also being able to combat this disease, it's very frustrating to read a lot of the comments here. I can understand why the public is skeptical, but I feel like as a society we've swung so far away from institutional trust that now nothing good can actually emerge. The anti-vax movement is a…

As an Australian who has privacy concerns their government's COVIDSafe app (see https://github.com/vteague/contactTracing ), and hence not installing it, I'm really thankful that Apple and Google are pushing this model of contact tracing. We still don't know if digital contact tracing is effective in practice, but it's still important to try, but we can do this in a way that avoids giving governments with worrying au…

Having Google/Apple develop a tracking technology is the same as the US government having it. If you don't believe, read again what Snowden revealed several years ago.

Re: Apple, Google ban location tracking in apps using their contact-tracing system

#322

Post by eternalban »

dchyrdvh wrote: post #201
eternalban wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a legal framework, that is what is happening now. I noted this a while back in a flippant comment "Capitalism with Chinese Characteristics" (which didn't go down well :). A contact tracing system and a virus with n days of non-symptomatic incubation, and international borders. Let's think this through a bit. Of what benefit is to the traveler admitting/host country (H) to note on the "medical passport" issued…

But imagine the new frontiers it opens! Countries would exchange and trade massive amounts of user data like oil. Want to participate in air travel? Better to sign treaties to buy tracing data, as without it your country won't be compliant with the international safety laws. I see trillions of new wealth being built there. On a serious note, this reminds me of a quote from one book: "the fourth round will be remarked…

I just got an urge to resurrect Frank Herbert to see what he has to say about all this. Wonder who is our dear Leto the God Emperor, the benevolent monster who is dragging an un-surprisingly quiet and docile humanity to its designated future. One hears the monster has 7 heads.

I'm not sure about the hand me down binary model conclusion. We're in agreement regarding the inevitability of this turn of events, but then again it was apparently clear as day thousands of years ago to "self isolating" monks.

But the clarity of the choice is stark, and like a blast of cold air invigorates one's morals and character.

Good luck!

Re: Apple, Google ban location tracking in apps using their contact-tracing system

#323

Post by sk0g »

afro88 wrote: post #287
valtism wrote: post #260

Earlier quoted context omitted.

COVIDSafe will be using these new APIs.

Have you got a link / source for this? Genuinely interested, not being a dick.

From what I heard it works fine on Android, but on iOS it works ok... as long as you have the app running in the foreground, and your phone unlocked, while out and about.

The only way to fix that would be to use this new API on iOS.

Re: Apple, Google ban location tracking in apps using their contact-tracing system

#324

Post by jaimex2 »

crushthecurve wrote: post #235
jaimex2 wrote: post #168

Here in Australia our Covid tracing app is already out. It uses Bluetooth proximity logs and local storage unless you test positive and are asked to upload. I had a look at whats in the apps DB and it seems it just keeps a log of unique ids it bumps into. When you test positive and upload I'm guessing it publishes those unique ids if the logs show over 15 minutes of contact. The government already have our locations…

A misunderstanding is that this system results in instantaneous contact notification and isolation (which is what one of the original papers on digital contact tracing efficacy assumes). The reality is the entire 'human in the loop' contact tracing process is still manual. Health staff working in state contact tracing teams still need to call and interview every contact to determine whether they could be considered a…

Thanks for the insight.

Why wouldn't they just auto-alert anyone who came in adequate proximity to get tested though? Surely there is some benefit to letting people know they need to be extra careful now and get tested ASAP.

All the manual human work can continue as normal.

Re: Apple, Google ban location tracking in apps using their contact-tracing system

#325

Post by swiley »

azinman2 wrote: post #239

I have to say, working at Apple and knowing all the hard work that goes into this and making sure your data stays private while also being able to combat this disease, it's very frustrating to read a lot of the comments here. I can understand why the public is skeptical, but I feel like as a society we've swung so far away from institutional trust that now nothing good can actually emerge. The anti-vax movement is a…

If you want to restore trust then stop fighting with users and give them control over their devices.

iOS is full of dark patterns and a few absolutely awful restrictions that are very anti user. It shouldn’t be surprising that the users don’t trust Apple.

(Hopefully this doesn’t come across as disrespectful, I think the work you guys have done on contact tracing is awesome.)

Re: Apple, Google ban location tracking in apps using their contact-tracing system

#326

Post by OpieCunningham »

fenomas wrote: post #308
azinman2 wrote: post #239

I have to say, working at Apple and knowing all the hard work that goes into this and making sure your data stays private while also being able to combat this disease, it's very frustrating to read a lot of the comments here. I can understand why the public is skeptical, but I feel like as a society we've swung so far away from institutional trust that now nothing good can actually emerge. The anti-vax movement is a…

I've long felt like Apple is uniquely easy to distrust, due to its almost total lack of visible employees. I assume there are actual people working there, but I've never seen one, say, speak (openly) at a meetup or answer a stackoverflow question, or the like. ~Everything I know about Apple either comes from an advertisement or from a guy who talked to a guy who talked to Gruber, and I have a feeling that that makes…

The general populace generally doesn’t pay any attention to any statements from any employees of any company. Those in the tech industry generally don’t pay any attention to statements from any employees of any company outside the tech industry. Being aware of statements from employees does not appear to be a factor in terms of trust in a company.

Re: Apple, Google ban location tracking in apps using their contact-tracing system

#327

Post by adatavizguy »

azinman2 wrote: post #239

I have to say, working at Apple and knowing all the hard work that goes into this and making sure your data stays private while also being able to combat this disease, it's very frustrating to read a lot of the comments here. I can understand why the public is skeptical, but I feel like as a society we've swung so far away from institutional trust that now nothing good can actually emerge. The anti-vax movement is a…

We are culturally obsessed with "Luke, trust your feelings." There is something extremely wrong and dangerous with Star Wars and that idea to put away reason and just trust our feelings. Joseph Campbell what did you do?

Re: Apple, Google ban location tracking in apps using their contact-tracing system

#328

Post by arcticbull »

azinman2 wrote: post #239

I have to say, working at Apple and knowing all the hard work that goes into this and making sure your data stays private while also being able to combat this disease, it's very frustrating to read a lot of the comments here. I can understand why the public is skeptical, but I feel like as a society we've swung so far away from institutional trust that now nothing good can actually emerge. The anti-vax movement is a…

As a former Apple employee, it's gutsy for you to post this, or anything, certainly on a controversial topic.

You don't work for the kind of employer that values someone sticking their head out and saying ... anything. They want to control the message, and saying anything may be worse for both you, and for Apple, than saying nothing.

Just be careful. Apple's got the people to manage this PR situation.

Re: Apple, Google ban location tracking in apps using their contact-tracing system

#329

Post by crushthecurve »

jaimex2 wrote: post #324
crushthecurve wrote: post #235

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A misunderstanding is that this system results in instantaneous contact notification and isolation (which is what one of the original papers on digital contact tracing efficacy assumes). The reality is the entire 'human in the loop' contact tracing process is still manual. Health staff working in state contact tracing teams still need to call and interview every contact to determine whether they could be considered a…

Thanks for the insight. Why wouldn't they just auto-alert anyone who came in adequate proximity to get tested though? Surely there is some benefit to letting people know they need to be extra careful now and get tested ASAP. All the manual human work can continue as normal.

If someone is determined as a close contact they have to legally self-isolate for 14 days regardless of symptoms or test results.

The policy there probably reflects the understanding that people in the early stages of infection won't test positive or exhibit symptoms.

Re: Apple, Google ban location tracking in apps using their contact-tracing system

#330

Post by on_and_off »

xkyscore wrote: post #136
on_and_off wrote: post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was lucky enough to discuss it with google people. There has been a huge influx of people trying to upload scammy covid apps. As a result the mere mention of covid is enough to get your app flagged automatically. I don't currently work on a covid app, but I know somebody who does. Their app was flagged but they were able to resolve it by contacting google.

>they were able to resolve it by contacting google. Do they happen to be government-funded, or represent a health company as stated above? To be fair, I didn't follow up the rejection, I just assumed the rule would be set in stone and they wouldn't budge. The app was free, no ads or any method to profit from covid so I was pretty shocked.

not at all, it couldn't have been smaller : personal app from an unknown dev.

I don't remember the specifics since I thankfully don't get my apps rejected often, but there should be a button to contact the play store support somewhere in the play store UI.

Unfortunately in this kind of situation, the play store handling, while understandable, does not make it easy for legitimate covid apps to be posted.

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