Apple, Google ban location tracking in apps using their contact-tracing system • Hacker News Board

Re: Apple, Google ban location tracking in apps using their contact-tracing system

#71

Post by jrockway » Mon, May 04, 2020, 10:05 PM UTC

threeseed wrote: post #62

dkdk8283 wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Contact tracing is a wet dream for five-eyes. I don't even think it will even be effective given the anticipated number of cases.

Stop spreading FUD. Governments have had access to your location and associates for decades via the mobile phone network. I've worked at a telco where we were analysing customer's behaviours and almost everyone follows a pattern at some point e.g. going from home, via public transport to work. The resolution isn't high but over time you build up enough samples to accurately determine exactly where they live, work etc…

Collecting vast swaths of data to know where I live and work, which are literally the first two questions on my income tax return btw, is very different from knowing the name of every person I've been near and the location where I'm near them. We've all seen how these "geofence warrants" have gone -- a lot of innocent people being dragged through the court system for absolutely no reason.

If we do end up implementing a centralized contact tracing system, the results will be very interesting. I would love to know the name and location of every lobbyist that my elected representatives have met with, and I'm sure that in the name of public health they won't make any efforts to thwart this tracking.

Re: Apple, Google ban location tracking in apps using their contact-tracing system

#72

Post by saagarjha » Mon, May 04, 2020, 10:07 PM UTC

taywrobel wrote: post #64

GaryNumanVevo wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They create tools that enable the government to infringe on the privacy rights of their citizens

I could argue the exact same about literally any database used by the government. Their tools are just easier to use and more expressive. If you don’t like the bullshit the government does, that seems like an issue you should take up with the government, no? You’re using a tech company as a scapegoat.

A technology company that takes advantage of holes in the law, and actively promotes that those holes are not closed…

Re: Apple, Google ban location tracking in apps using their contact-tracing system

#73

Post by karambir » Mon, May 04, 2020, 10:07 PM UTC

ivarojha wrote: post #61

karambir wrote: post #9

Will be interesting to see if they can ban Indian govt. app[1] which needs full location access(clarified)[3]. A lot of people like this app(including me) but also know government does not have good track record in securing private data. Previously Apple were made to bend their rules when India threatened to ban Apple devices if they don't allow TRAI Do Not Disturb app in 2018.[2] [1] https://play.google.com/store/ap…

Not sure about Android, but if you're on iOS you have the choice to disable "full location access". In case it's needed to run certain feature in the app, you can choose the "Allow while using" option. I do that will all the apps that require location access: local food delivery, cab services, vehicle rental and what not.

We can and for most apps I do this too. But some apps, like this one, require the location or they won't even start. Also at least on android(which also has fine-grained permissions now), this app specifically requires on-going(background?) location access.

Recently this has also been made mandatory for employees, public and private. So organizations have to ensure all employees have this app on their smartphones. We will see how much this is enforced.

Re: Apple, Google ban location tracking in apps using their contact-tracing system

#74

Post by slg » Mon, May 04, 2020, 10:08 PM UTC

gruez wrote: post #43

cm2187 wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And Apple.

Apple logs location history? Other than the wifi location log from ios4 and the significant locations feature (opt in, device only), I don't know how apple is logging locations.

On your iPhone you can go to Settings -> Privacy -> Location Services -> System Services -> Significant Locations and you will see that Apple does keep track of at least some of your location history and tries to analyze it if you don't actively turn it off.

Re: Apple, Google ban location tracking in apps using their contact-tracing system

#75

Post by epanchin » Mon, May 04, 2020, 10:08 PM UTC

ivarojha wrote: post #61

karambir wrote: post #9

Will be interesting to see if they can ban Indian govt. app[1] which needs full location access(clarified)[3]. A lot of people like this app(including me) but also know government does not have good track record in securing private data. Previously Apple were made to bend their rules when India threatened to ban Apple devices if they don't allow TRAI Do Not Disturb app in 2018.[2] [1] https://play.google.com/store/ap…

Not sure about Android, but if you're on iOS you have the choice to disable "full location access". In case it's needed to run certain feature in the app, you can choose the "Allow while using" option. I do that will all the apps that require location access: local food delivery, cab services, vehicle rental and what not.

If everyone else with the app has location access enabled it is redundant disabling it.

App knows their location, and app knows you’re near them. Location access by proxy.

Re: Apple, Google ban location tracking in apps using their contact-tracing system

#76

Post by cactus2093 » Mon, May 04, 2020, 10:08 PM UTC

lazyeye wrote: post #12

Does anyone else find this a little ironic given Google is a company that has been logging peoples location to a very fine detail for years

And we'll see how this plays out, perhaps it will be tragically ironic. The majority of people don't ever think about this and are happy to give their location info to Google constantly all day long. This protocol is in almost all ways much less intrusive and more protective of privacy, and the upside for society is potentially high.

It should be a complete no-brainer that everyone who is ok using google or apple maps, i.e. probably 95+% of the country, be ok downloading their local health department's contact tracing app if it uses these APIs. But we'll see how it plays out, in the end it will surely come down to how this is politicized and not actually be based on the technical merits of this protocol at all.

Re: Apple, Google ban location tracking in apps using their contact-tracing system

#77

Post by chimprich » Mon, May 04, 2020, 10:08 PM UTC

dkdk8283 wrote: post #20

AJRF wrote: post #3

I've been wondering about the UK contact tracing app because they seem to be deliberately misleading saying that data is secure on the phone, yet it's a centralised model, and they are using bullshit terms like "clinically secure algorithm" to describe the one-time codes; Is the source code of these apps something that could be FOI requested from NHSx seeing as it is publicly funded by the tax payer? Also they've alr…

Contact tracing is a wet dream for five-eyes. I don't even think it will even be effective given the anticipated number of cases.

This is of little interest to 5-eyes.

For a start, installation of the app is voluntary so if you're planning something you really don't want the government to discover, you wouldn't install it.

Also, intelligence services already get call metadata so they know which mobile towers you are using and probably lots else.

As for effectiveness, I think it will be useful. There have been several papers crunching the numbers and it looks like it will have an effect. It doesn't need to be perfect - any non-trivial reduction in R is helpful.

Re: Apple, Google ban location tracking in apps using their contact-tracing system

#78

Post by dave5104 » Mon, May 04, 2020, 10:09 PM UTC

taywrobel wrote: post #63

SSLy wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'll use an analogy: they might not be the warlords, but they are the weapon traffickers.

I disagree with that analogy. Palantir isn’t getting them more data. It’s helping them use it more effectively. The organizations already have all the data recorded. If you don’t like the data that organizations record, I’m right there with you, but demonizing the tools that allow them to access data more effectively is an absurd stance to take. Their system also does things like add an immutable audit log, or enforc…

I'm curious if "accountability" actually means anything in practice, or if it's just some of the Palantir corporate kool-aid.

I don't think everyone associates government agencies with pristine records of holding themselves accountable.

Re: Apple, Google ban location tracking in apps using their contact-tracing system

#79

Post by jedberg » Mon, May 04, 2020, 10:09 PM UTC

cwhiz wrote: post #69

xkyscore wrote: post #16

Google have flat out banned any apps that have anything to do with combating COVID-19 if they aren't either funded by their government or are a registered health company. I tried releasing a symptom tracker app before Zoe released theirs and it was rejected for this reason.

They will ban and flag your account if your app just mentions the word Covid. It is absolutely absurd. Only Google is allowed to make a Covid app.

It may be a bit harsh, but it makes sense. Too many people are trying to take advantage of the situation to pull scams.

It's a lot easier for Google to operate on a whitelist model than a blacklist model.

Re: Apple, Google ban location tracking in apps using their contact-tracing system

#80

Post by eternalban » Mon, May 04, 2020, 10:09 PM UTC

cm2187 wrote: post #34

dkdk8283 wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Contact tracing is a wet dream for five-eyes. I don't even think it will even be effective given the anticipated number of cases.

You don't think the 5 eyes don't get handed out mobile data location directly from the cariers? I am more concerned about a database that will inevitably be accessed by lots of researchers, and of course one will think it's a good idea to store a copy on a USB key or a public s3 bucket, etc. It the same story happening again and again and again...

This is a legal framework, that is what is happening now. I noted this a while back in a flippant comment "Capitalism with Chinese Characteristics" (which didn't go down well :).

A contact tracing system and a virus with n days of non-symptomatic incubation, and international borders. Let's think this through a bit. Of what benefit is to the traveler admitting/host country (H) to note on the "medical passport" issued by origin country (O)? Obviously, for this thing to even work on paper, countries need to exchange massive amount of information.

The fact stands [challenge it!] that the socio-political regime being rolled out in guise of defense against Covid-19 and future viral friends aligns perfectly with a specific ideological position. It really was 'Nature's gift'.

What used to be accomplished via violent revolution is being accomplished with 'scientific' efficiency and very little blood. Oh, that figurative blood in the streets of middle and lower classes? "The Virus does not discriminate!".