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Alcoholics Anonymous vs. other approaches: the evidence is now in

nytimes.com

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Re: Alcoholics Anonymous vs. other approaches: the evidence is now in

#321

Post by jdietrich »

michaelt wrote: post #287
lazyasciiart wrote: post #264

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's spontaneous because it is not caused by the external treatment. It's not a misnomer so much as a difference in usage. When you say a person did something spontaneously, it means it was impulsive, not caused by anything, and has connotations of being a sudden or easy action. When you say an event was spontaneous, there is no reference to meaning or intensity of the event - it simply means that there was no extern…

Still, if my physiotherapist tells me to strengthen my core muscles with daily bodyweight exercises and I instead strengthen my core muscles with weekly free weights exercises, if I am cured it would seem odd to call it spontaneous.

The statistical question is whether you would have done those exercises regardless of whether you consulted a physiotherapist. If you would have done those free weights exercises anyway, then it's unreasonable to credit the physio with your recovery; if you wouldn't have done them of your own accord, then it's reasonable to credit the physio even though the precise causal mechanism wasn't what we would expect. We're not trying to address philosophical questions, but find out whether particular treatments have a meaningful effect.

Re: Alcoholics Anonymous vs. other approaches: the evidence is now in

#322

Post by nabnob »

pmoriarty wrote: post #67

Little known fact: Bill Wilson[1], co-founder of Alcoholics Anonymous, believed LSD could help alcoholics achieve a "spiritual experience" that was crucial to them attaining sobriety[2] (incidentally, that a spiritual experience could help alcoholics was an idea he got from Carl Jung[3]). Wilson's own experiences with LSD are discussed in detail here: [4] In the 50's and 60's there was research in to using LSD to tre…

Jungian psychology (shadow work) and the occult have been absolutely critical for me to work through the internal contradictions that led me to seek out drugs in the first place.

Re: Alcoholics Anonymous vs. other approaches: the evidence is now in

#323

Post by jlangemeier »

peatfreak wrote: post #293
jlangemeier wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem with invoking that part of the solution that helps is the surrender to a higher power, is that there isn't a lot of group therapy solutions that don't have that involved. We can't effectively say for certain whether there's a correlation with throwing in a higher power or just group therapy on its own in this circumstance, and I know for a fact there are many that will not join an "* Anonymous" group beca…

> We can't effectively say for certain whether there's a correlation with throwing in a higher power or just group therapy on its own in this circumstance The higher power is not "thrown in" to AA, it is the critical foundation. Also the people who are most critical of this concept or most aggressively reject AA based on a perceived religious foundation also tend to be the ones who have the poorest understanding of w…

If it helps people, I'm glad; but to say that the people that it doesn't help "just don't get it" is pretty disingenuous. And since this was in response to my interest in correlation between the higher power and improved outcomes, I'm sure you've got a study lying around that I could take a look at; anecdata is nice, but group therapy on its own has also been shown to be helpful, and none of the studies that I've seen so far use general group therapy as a control group over an Anonymous group (Gaming, Marijuana, Alcoholics, Gamblers, etc).

Re: Alcoholics Anonymous vs. other approaches: the evidence is now in

#324

Post by addict_throwawa »

formeruser wrote: post #320
addict_throwawa wrote: post #252

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How long of a taper did you do? im not on a very high dose but was still thinking about like 3 months. but I also am 50/50 like I'm worried about the after effects you have - this is working so well now I see very little downside to long term use and the upside is really big imho - except probably harder to eventually taper off the longer I'm on.

By not high, do you mean around 2-4 mgs? If so, 3 months is probably a good timeline for taking a 25%-50% reduction every 1-2 weeks or so. I might have even taken longer for the last few doses. I think the big thing is not to rush it and take a pace you're comfortable with. Like you say, taking buprenorphine is much preferable to turning to alternatives. My first experience with a taper was at rehab as they were push…

great advice - thank you. it's helpful hearing success, and triple from those who have successful business lives especially tech/engineering/etc

yup on on 4mg.

i go to the phoenix snd got into my preferred sport again! something i gave up while using that was a huge part of my life. and it's been so good to get it back both community, new friends, and just getting back into shape.

Re: Alcoholics Anonymous vs. other approaches: the evidence is now in

#326

Post by thulecitizen »

thulecitizen wrote: post #306
prawn wrote: post #267

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've always assumed that some top level posts are elevated based on the quality/upvotes of their best replies.

Yeah I think it works like that too. Yet at the same time I think dang has the ability to move any post up or down/re-prioritizing or re-ranking based on his intellect, instead of a natural, organic ranking. It becomes a forced therapy session by dang. We also cannot know if this happens, since those moves would be invisible to everyone else on the site (except to other admins/moderators). I do not think it’s far fet…

> re-ranking based on his intellect

re-ranking based on his interests

Re: Alcoholics Anonymous vs. other approaches: the evidence is now in

#327

Post by [deleted] »

driverdan wrote: post #177
alharith wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The fallacy I can't help but point out here is that thinking because of our science we are better off and have somehow been "enlightened" when all evidence points to the contrary, at least not to the things that truly matter: the human condition, life, love, family, relationships: can't say our science and techology has made these things better on a whole, but at least we can binge watch Netflix and play Minecraft to…

Tell that to your grandparents who had to live through polio, small pox, and other terrible diseases that have been eliminated or significantly reduced to near nil. While you're at it, ask them what it was like trying to keep in contact with someone far away before the internet. Maybe ask them about birth complications and childhood death rates. People who pine for the past are ignoring the facts in their face. Life…

[deleted]

Re: Alcoholics Anonymous vs. other approaches: the evidence is now in

#328

Post by alharith »

driverdan wrote: post #177
alharith wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The fallacy I can't help but point out here is that thinking because of our science we are better off and have somehow been "enlightened" when all evidence points to the contrary, at least not to the things that truly matter: the human condition, life, love, family, relationships: can't say our science and techology has made these things better on a whole, but at least we can binge watch Netflix and play Minecraft to…

Tell that to your grandparents who had to live through polio, small pox, and other terrible diseases that have been eliminated or significantly reduced to near nil. While you're at it, ask them what it was like trying to keep in contact with someone far away before the internet. Maybe ask them about birth complications and childhood death rates. People who pine for the past are ignoring the facts in their face. Life…

Great, so we are living longer, less full lives. Yes every time this point is brought up, medical technology is always pointed to as the big "gotcha!." Let's concede that medical technology indeed has done us all a great service, and set that aside. Now what? Social media has made keeping in contact easier? That's all you got? Really?

> People who pine for the past are ignoring the facts in their face. Life has never been better.

For the very temporary moment. There's many hypothesizing that our mostly sterile lives we've lived in the past 50 years was not a good idea, that your immune system needs practice, and that when the next superbug comes along, not only will we not be able to handle it, we won't have effective antibiotics to combat them, but I digress.

Re: Alcoholics Anonymous vs. other approaches: the evidence is now in

#329

Post by GiuseppaAcciaio »

sbilstein wrote: post #125

I didn’t do AA but did AlAnon for children of alcoholics recovering from trauma. Despite what people think, the 12 step program is super light on the spirituality stuff and very atheist friendly. As a recovery group AlAnon was super useful for getting some closure on the hell my parents dragged me through and just leaving that stuff behind. Edit:I guess I should have qualified that I’ve only done support groups in SF…

Same here, been to Al-Anon meetings in London UK, all hosted in church basements and with zero religious nonsense being spouted... just the Serenity Prayer and tbh that one is just plain good advice so I did not mind :) I have nothing but praise for the 12-step system as I experienced it

Re: Alcoholics Anonymous vs. other approaches: the evidence is now in

#330

Post by GiuseppaAcciaio »

abyssin wrote: post #317
kilroy123 wrote: post #153

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I, too, went to AlAnon meetings when I was a teen. I honestly don't think I would be where I'm at today without going when I was younger.

Can you share about how it helped you?

Not the person you were replying to, however for me it mainly helped me understand that my loved ones' drinking was not something I could control, and it allowed me to let go of the anger and resentment (easier said than done).
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