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Why so many Chinese students can’t understand the Hong Kong protests

latimes.com

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Re: Why so many Chinese students can’t understand the Hong Kong protests

#321

Post by helge9210 »

Mikeb85 wrote: post #30

I think a lot of people who were born in the west don't understand that, when you're very poor, economic circumstances matter more than political freedom. After all, having money (or not) affects what you can or cannot do far more than whoever's in charge. Chinese people today have lived through an economic miracle. If I lived there I doubt I'd criticize their system, especially considering people still can remember…

Ukrainian revolutions (2004 and 2013) reached their goals: non-rigged democratic elections. As for lost Crimea: with Yanukovich still in power whole southern and eastern part of country would be lost and own army would fight resistance and help Russian invasion.

Re: Why so many Chinese students can’t understand the Hong Kong protests

#322

Post by rdlecler1 »

Nasrudith wrote: post #305
rdlecler1 wrote: post #229

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>I think a lot of people who were born in the west don't understand that, when you're very poor, economic circumstances matter more than political freedom. After all, having money (or not) affects what you can or cannot do far more than whoever's in charge. Economic concerns elected Trump.

Except that is wrong. The average Trump voter had more money and assets. Disproportionate wrong-headed electoral college are what got him elected - he lost by 13 million votes!

You can still have economic concerns whether you are poor or wealthy. This is going to be the biggest driver of a presidential election: who is going to make me better off.

Re: Why so many Chinese students can’t understand the Hong Kong protests

#323

Post by RightMillennial »

Nasrudith wrote: post #305
rdlecler1 wrote: post #229

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>I think a lot of people who were born in the west don't understand that, when you're very poor, economic circumstances matter more than political freedom. After all, having money (or not) affects what you can or cannot do far more than whoever's in charge. Economic concerns elected Trump.

Except that is wrong. The average Trump voter had more money and assets. Disproportionate wrong-headed electoral college are what got him elected - he lost by 13 million votes!

You're off by an order of magnitude. Trump received 62.98 m votes while Clinton received 65.85 m. That's a difference of 2.87 m votes not 13 million. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2016_United_States_presidentia...)

Re: Why so many Chinese students can’t understand the Hong Kong protests

#324

Post by pimmen »

blade123 wrote: post #320
pimmen wrote: post #255

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've never understood then why the Chinese are against democracy. If everyone is happy and can't imagine a better government wouldn't they just elect the CCP every time?

> can't imagine a better government As an American, I sometimes wonder if it is too dogmatic to treat democracy as the end all be all of governments. As I understand it, democracy refers to a heuristic for solving the problem of reaching consensus in a decision making scenario in a system of multiple agents each having a differing opinion. In this heuristic, every agent has the right to vote on an issue in order to i…

I would love to discuss these questions, starting with ”is consensus or effect what we’re really measuring?” or ”if the agents get to decide how they’re evaluates, what effect does that have?” but it really has very little to do with the fact that if everyone loves the CCP and they are doing a great job, democracy could be introduced without any real hassle.

Re: Why so many Chinese students can’t understand the Hong Kong protests

#325

Post by dogma1138 »

mitfahrener wrote: post #294
dogma1138 wrote: post #244

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Have you been to HK? The level of inequality there is staggering and the cost of living is much higher than most western countries, including things such as rent. You think SV valley rents are bat shit crazy? Take a look at HK real estate listings.

That doesn't seem to be mainland/CCP's fault. The big real estate developers (the Lee, Kwoks families, etc) owns much of the properties. Why is mainland China the target for inequality and housing issue to blame? I have no stake in this fight, just curious.

No one blamed mainland here but I have a very strong suspicion that you have stake in this fight given that your entire 5 months comment history here is about China related topics.

Re: Why so many Chinese students can’t understand the Hong Kong protests

#326

Post by GC007 »

Mikeb85 wrote: post #30

I think a lot of people who were born in the west don't understand that, when you're very poor, economic circumstances matter more than political freedom. After all, having money (or not) affects what you can or cannot do far more than whoever's in charge. Chinese people today have lived through an economic miracle. If I lived there I doubt I'd criticize their system, especially considering people still can remember…

You are completely missing the point of the protests. The HK bar association was one of the first to take to the streets back in May. The protests are about keeping the judicial system free from outside influences. HK is one of the last great neutral territories left in the world thats outside of American influence. Might I remind you almost no western country has extradition treaties with Mainland China. Even Taiwan has said back in May to cancel the Bill as it does not need the extradition of the murder suspect that started the whole bill. This is about keeping HK neutral so more Snowdens and political refugees can have a place to go. But you think this is just about $$$ truly sad.

Re: Why so many Chinese students can’t understand the Hong Kong protests

#327

Post by socrates1998 »

AnimalMuppet wrote: post #9
socrates1998 wrote: post #6

Chinese students should be allowed to think however they want, but their behavior is unacceptable in a western democracy. I am not sure that these international Chinese students are good for our universities. I feel like the universities sold out to them because they pay full price tuition. This is latest example of them not understanding even basic behavior in western country.

Wanting their rules to apply in a host country... yeah, that's not a good look. In contrast, we in the West never expect other countries to do it our way when we visit them... /s

So you think it's okay for Chinese students to abuse and harass the protesters? I don't know what you point is?

Re: Why so many Chinese students can’t understand the Hong Kong protests

#328

Post by socrates1998 »

hrktb wrote: post #10
socrates1998 wrote: post #6

Chinese students should be allowed to think however they want, but their behavior is unacceptable in a western democracy. I am not sure that these international Chinese students are good for our universities. I feel like the universities sold out to them because they pay full price tuition. This is latest example of them not understanding even basic behavior in western country.

Isn’t it the same issue, and something that needs to be explained and taught to the students coming there to learn?

Yes, but if you have known a lot of under grad Chinese students, you will know they often don't learn much of anything.

Re: Why so many Chinese students can’t understand the Hong Kong protests

#329

Post by sullyj3 »

euske wrote: post #49

I think the recurring theme is whether every individual is strong enough to deserve truth and freedom. I'm a West-leaned person so I want to believe yes, but empirically I know this is not the case for many (perhaps myself included!), and I wouldn't be surprised if there's a society which believes otherwise. They might not be a total dictatorship, but people would think some form of oppression is necessary or even pr…

I think the key point is that governments are made of fallible people too. If not everyone deserves individual freedom, then certainly not everyone deserves power over others. And autocracies don't provide any facility for ensuring that those in power are in any way deserving.

Re: Why so many Chinese students can’t understand the Hong Kong protests

#330

Post by bart_spoon »

cassbot wrote: post #105
ccccppppp wrote: post #25

Or how many Russians don't understand why Ukraine for example is upset. Is as if propaganda works. Who would have thought. Once I was discussing with a Chinese colleague and the Tiananmen subject came up (it was in the news, I didn't bring it up), and he told me that the students were not that innocent either, that they killed 150 soldiers the night before. I asked him, how could some students with rocks kill 150 sol…

As a Chinese American, I've noticed that propaganda is everywhere and we all need to be wary of it. Tiananmen is often brought up, but did you know that the US experienced a parallel event? I didn't learn about this in US history class, but apparently soldiers fired upon unarmed student protesters in the Kent State shooting: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kent_State_shootings

Kent State is incredibly famous and covered in the context of the US's wars in Southeast Asia in any US History class. I definitely learned about it in high school. It also isn't actively scrubbed from the internet or other sources of information like Tiananmen square is in China. If you are unaware of Kent State, it isn't due to propaganda or censorship, it is due to your own ignorance.
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