Police Say Video Shows Woman Stepped Suddenly in Front of Self-Driving Uber • Hacker News Board

Re: Police Say Video Shows Woman Stepped Suddenly in Front of Self-Driving Uber

#321

Post by ttctciyf » Wed, Mar 21, 2018, 7:08 AM UTC

ajross wrote: post #310

jdavis703 wrote: post #265

When I was getting my learners permit I was practicing on a curvy mountain road. I saw a person with a camera phone on the "drop off" side of the road, taking a picture of from what my angle would've been a boring cliff face. But I knew that a camera phone photographer was probably actually photographing a human, who would likely be on the other side of the blind corner. So I slowed down, despite my instructor chasti…

Your own story disproves your conclusion. Your driving instructor, like many (many) other drivers, didn't make the infererence that you did. People don't drive well. Cars are dangerous. The criterion (really the only criterion) for whether or not automatic vehicles "should be on the road" is whether or not they are safer than the alternative. And that certainly doesn't include "being as good a driver as jdavis703 was…

The instructor, though, wasn't the one driving.

Being engaged in a particular role relative to a situation can (I believe) alter one's capacity to perceive and respond to it.

This isn't to say that for definite the instructor would have had the insight described in the parent post, but it is to say that you can't rule this out just based on the information that as a passenger they didn't have the insight.

Re: Police Say Video Shows Woman Stepped Suddenly in Front of Self-Driving Uber

#322

Post by manicdee » Wed, Mar 21, 2018, 7:10 AM UTC

userbinator wrote: post #209

Fr0styMatt88 wrote: post #141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The question that comes to my mind then is.... why didn't the human driver that was sitting behind the wheel react? Could this be a demonstration of what people talk about with regards to partial autonomy being a detriment to human attention?

Could this be a demonstration of what people talk about with regards to partial autonomy being a detriment to human attention? Definitely. By the time the human realises something is wrong and has to take control, it's already too late. Incidentally, this is also why autopilots in planes have been more successful --- when something goes wrong high up in the sky, there's still relatively much time to assess the situat…

Plus pilots in planes with autopilot engaged still have their hands on the controls and still monitor the activity of the autopilot.

Re: Police Say Video Shows Woman Stepped Suddenly in Front of Self-Driving Uber

#323

Post by philwelch » Wed, Mar 21, 2018, 7:13 AM UTC

asdbffg wrote: post #243

philwelch wrote: post #169

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That’s just human intuition, which is trained over time through experience. Which is also how machine learning works, so it’s not quite clear that humans have a sustainable advantage here.

Machine learning also has tendency to unlearn things and corrupt it's own models when left unaided.

So do people ;)

Re: Police Say Video Shows Woman Stepped Suddenly in Front of Self-Driving Uber

#324

Post by dildo_fingers » Wed, Mar 21, 2018, 7:19 AM UTC

KKKKkkkk1 wrote: post #317

Some of the commenters here think they can do a better job reconstructing the incident from newspaper cartoons than actual investigators who are working at the scene. You guys can just as well make up a story in which a murderous Uber robot chased a pedestrian off of the sidewalk and onto the road and then intentionally ran her over.

Murder Robot is a dope metal band name.

Re: Police Say Video Shows Woman Stepped Suddenly in Front of Self-Driving Uber

#325

Post by mirimir » Wed, Mar 21, 2018, 7:20 AM UTC

dpark wrote: post #278

mirimir wrote: post #173

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's what I wonder. Yes, it has LIDAR etc. But there was this comment yesterday by arbie:[0] > Sensor Fusion typically merges LiDAR with stereoscopic camera feeds, the latter requiring ambient light. So might LIDAR data get de-emphasized when there's too little light for the cameras? 0) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16619917

If there’s not enough light for the cameras, LIDAR would get emphasized, not de-emphasized.

Thanks. So in this case, how come the woman wasn't identified based on the LIDAR data?

Re: Police Say Video Shows Woman Stepped Suddenly in Front of Self-Driving Uber

#326

Post by zamalek » Wed, Mar 21, 2018, 7:28 AM UTC

LethargicStud wrote: post #271

jdavis703 wrote: post #265

When I was getting my learners permit I was practicing on a curvy mountain road. I saw a person with a camera phone on the "drop off" side of the road, taking a picture of from what my angle would've been a boring cliff face. But I knew that a camera phone photographer was probably actually photographing a human, who would likely be on the other side of the blind corner. So I slowed down, despite my instructor chasti…

The self driving accidents might be the easiest for humans to avoid, but if accident rates are lower for self-driving cars, it's still worth it. Let's look at overall numbers and severity, not how avoidable it would be for a human.

I am a massive proponent of self-driving vehicles for exactly the same reasons you indicated. However, I do a huge reservation: this tech can only peak if it is the only thing on the road.

My outlook on the transition period is not very optimistic. Humans are good at anticipating crazy behavior. Fatalities increasing (before they eventually decrease) is currently just as likely as the promised miracle in my mind - we don't have enough data to sway my mind either direction just yet.

Re: Police Say Video Shows Woman Stepped Suddenly in Front of Self-Driving Uber

#327

Post by zamalek » Wed, Mar 21, 2018, 7:35 AM UTC

tintor wrote: post #115

cbhl wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Waymo discovered sections of Mountain View where "the flow of traffic" was routinely 5-10 mph over the speed limit, and driving at the speed limit was actually more dangerous because it caused human drivers to try and go around the vehicle.

>> it caused human drivers to try and go around Nope, drivers made that decision on their own. They were not forced into it.

I guess we can call that the trolley paradox.

Re: Police Say Video Shows Woman Stepped Suddenly in Front of Self-Driving Uber

#328

Post by danso » Wed, Mar 21, 2018, 7:55 AM UTC

pharrington wrote: post #220

danso wrote: post #217

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Literally every discussion of note involves reading more into the original article, so yes, I guess you have me there, I am speculating. I didn't realize that was against the rules of HN discussion to bring in evidence external to the OP and state our premises? Is it speculation to point out that the police and OP misidentified the gender and name of the driver (it's Rafaela Vasquez, not Rafael)? Or that newer articl…

"If you want to speculate that the Uber driver and police are covering up negligence, that's fine" - the conclusion of the comment you're replying to. My beef is with 'Please don't accuse me or other commenters of spreading "rumors and speculations", without evidence or logical arguments.' The problem is fooling ourselves into being more certain than we can be. While this is common human behavior, especially in emoti…

OK, but I already explained my reaction was interpreting the user describing my comment as "rumors". I thought it was an unfair accusation and wanted more "evidence", e.g. updated reports that contradicted the NYT graphic. I wasn't aspiring to this being anymore than a usual discussion of news events.

But I agree, yes, it is easy to fool ourselves into being more certain than justified. I like having that pointed out during HN discussions :)

Re: Police Say Video Shows Woman Stepped Suddenly in Front of Self-Driving Uber

#329

Post by zaarn » Wed, Mar 21, 2018, 8:02 AM UTC

probably_wrong wrote: post #318

CobrastanJorji wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Weird scenarios that can't be predicted are important to consider. Waymo presentations like talking about a situation they ran into where the car needed to stop because it encountered an old woman in a wheelchair with a broom chasing a turkey. As I understand it, most of these companies sensibly say "unknown weird thing in/near road means stop the car." ooo, there's video of the turkey wheelchair broom chase: https:/…

> As I understand it, most of these companies sensibly say "unknown weird thing in/near road means stop the car." That's not entirely true. A Tesla, for instance, won't stop if it detects a stationary object on the highway, assuming it's a false positives of the algorithm. https://www.wired.com/story/tesla-autopilot-why-crash-radar

That sounds rather dangerous considering stationary objects do appear on highways from time to time.

Re: Police Say Video Shows Woman Stepped Suddenly in Front of Self-Driving Uber

#330

Post by emj » Wed, Mar 21, 2018, 8:29 AM UTC

to3m wrote: post #186

prawn wrote: post #183

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are "PED XING" signs in the US for pedestrian crossings. I don't think it's considered disparaging. https://www.google.com.au/search?q=ped+xing&source=lnms&tbm=...

Right - and in America you're not even allowed to cross the road! To the extent that when a self-driving car runs somebody over, "but but they were in the road " is somehow an adequate defence! If you want to consider this a cultural misunderstanding, fine. What can I do about that? Nothing. But please, before I go, because I can tell I'm not making much of an impact here, let me say it again: drive carefully, and fo…

As a non native speaker I'm reacting to the use of Ped as well, that paired with the obvious victim blaming that seems to be thrown around a lot, but to a much lesser extent here than in other forums discussing this issue.

Driving is a sensitive subject, people take it personal trying to do generalizations about drivers is just going to land you in a land of troubles, almost worse than profanity.