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Diesel cars can be banned from German cities, court rules

reuters.com

321–330 of 345 posts

Re: Diesel cars can be banned from German cities, court rules

#321
post #290

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's a strange statement. More horsepower based on what? I think if you look around, you'll see that the largest and highest horsepower combustion engines all burn diesel. Semi-trailers are exclusively diesel. Your statement on speed is also odd. Record setting cars may burn gas, but your typical car driving around a city or highway needn't ever go faster than 160km/h. Most cars can achieve this, and most modern ca…

> the diesel will win just about any street race. This is really wrong. It's a weird myth that gets perpetuated in America where people don't really drive diesels. Let's compare a 2.0L diesel Golf TDI to a 2.0L petrol Golf GTI. Same car, same displacement, both turbo engines. The Golf TDI does 0-60 in 9.0s and a quarter mile of 17.0s@84 mph. The Golf GTI does 0-60 in 5.7s and a quarter mile of 14.2s@100 mph. There's…

[deleted]

Re: Diesel cars can be banned from German cities, court rules

#322

Wouldn't it be great if Tesla kicks these cheaters in the bin and wins the car race (like the iPhone did vs. the other phones)? Pity producing cars isn't as fast as manufacturing an iPhone. Germany's industry is in real trouble, looks like they were cheating.

iPhones are produced by contract manufacturers. That's not how the car business is organized: there's no existing contract manufacturer that can produce the Model 3 in high volume. They only exist for low-volume, high-end cars.

Re: Diesel cars can be banned from German cities, court rules

#323

European law has been very tilted towards Diesel engines for a long time. As the recent VW debacle proved - oversight was quite lax compared to the US diesel regs. This laxness was the result of the influence of BMW, Mercedes and VW and the outcome of years of corporate lobbying. It’s a good first step, but they have further to go. Despite the rhetoric, Germany has also been very restrictive with Tesla, viewing it as…

Speaking about "rhetoric": " Germany has also been very restrictive with Tesla " How exactly does not subsidizing a company amounts to being restrictive?

not to mention that supercharger stations also would be beneficial to all German producers, because they too invest into electrical cars. VWs investment is about five times larger than Tesla's which isn't surprising given the size of the company.

Re: Diesel cars can be banned from German cities, court rules

#324
post #212

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a ___ who never owned ____ I would love to see ____ completely banned. I guess I sometimes feel this way about some things, but then pretty quickly get over it and realize that other people have different utility functions than me, and that I kinda like this whole life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness thing. I much rather take the approach that externalities be accounted for properly than to ban anything tha…

The thing is, I don't see how you can put a price on these externalities. 13.000 people die early in Germany alone because of this. What would you have them do with this money? Planting trees wont do them much good. Liberty is not an absolute thing. My freedom to drive my car ends where it encroaches on other peoples freedom to have a passable living environment. We've banned smoking in public spaces for exactly the…

Personally I was thinking purely in terms of the various forms of pollution, although the Harvard study does try to account for injury and loss of life. Externality is an economic theory, far from a euphemism.

It’s easy to gauge how many lives are lost due to the automobile. But how many lives are saved? How many lives are enriched? How many lives are even made possible because of the automobile?

You can look at only the costs of a thing, but I find the appeal to emotion, similar to gun control arguments, to be entirely unconvincing.

Furthermore, technology has steadily improved the safety of these machines, and I’m convinced we’re less than a decade away from a quantum leap in safety by automating more and more of the driving process.

As automobiles get quieter, safer, less polluting, available on demand, and less expensive, I’m afraid you’re going to see quite a bit more of them, not less.

It’s nothing less than economic warfare to ban diesel cars outright from entering a city. Ban the sale of new diesels if you want. Tax the hell out of diesel fuel if you want. Add a toll booth and set a lower speed limit. But your well meaning compatriots spent their hard earned money to buy their vehicles and if you’d just assume fuck them over for it, I’m sure they will find a way to repay the favor. Probably by not coming to your city (and spending their money there) in the first place. To which you might say, “Good riddance!” And we have an expression for that too.

Oftentimes there is an entirely valid reason to get in a car and drive somewhere. I know, this may be shocking to you. Shocking to the people talking about bicycling a couch uphill downthread too.

There are 45 million passenger cars in Germany (for 82 million people) so it seems you’re in the minority on this. Before you call for just outright banning cars, maybe consider how you could make public policy which would decrease the number of cars by 10% without increasing the cost of cars.

Re: Diesel cars can be banned from German cities, court rules

#325
post #318

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But ... a tax break is a subsidy! And really, there usually is little significance to how the subsidy is paid, it's usually just an artefact of how it developed historically and how things were easiest to implement, potentially depending on psychological factors. I mean, what would the alternative look like? You have to pay the same tax for both, but then can claim back a fixed percentage of the taxes on diesel? On t…

I think jacquesm adequately explained one of the major distinctions: a high tax that's slightly lower than the tax on a competing good does not result in a below-market price. While many of the effects are similar, it is not the same .

> a high tax that's slightly lower than the tax on a competing good does not result in a below-market price.

Erm ... what do you consider "the market price"?

I suppose it's not the price that people actually pay for something in the market, as then even the state paying for all your diesel needs would still not qualify as a subsidy (if the state pays for it, you don't pay anything, that would make the market price zero under that definition, so the free diesel would not be under market price, therefore not a subsidy, right?)?

But what is the market price, if it's not what people pay?

> While many of the effects are similar, it is not the same.

So ... what is the difference then?

Re: Diesel cars can be banned from German cities, court rules

#326
post #290

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's a strange statement. More horsepower based on what? I think if you look around, you'll see that the largest and highest horsepower combustion engines all burn diesel. Semi-trailers are exclusively diesel. Your statement on speed is also odd. Record setting cars may burn gas, but your typical car driving around a city or highway needn't ever go faster than 160km/h. Most cars can achieve this, and most modern ca…

> the diesel will win just about any street race. This is really wrong. It's a weird myth that gets perpetuated in America where people don't really drive diesels. Let's compare a 2.0L diesel Golf TDI to a 2.0L petrol Golf GTI. Same car, same displacement, both turbo engines. The Golf TDI does 0-60 in 9.0s and a quarter mile of 17.0s@84 mph. The Golf GTI does 0-60 in 5.7s and a quarter mile of 14.2s@100 mph. There's…

If you want to do this comparison please do it right: The Diesel equivalent to the Golf GTI is the Golf GTD. There's more than just displacement that makes up an engine and the fact that is some kind of turbocharger.

Their difference in 0-60 seems to be 6.4s vs 7.4s according to what I find. Guess the difference in higher regions might be even less, because of a different torque profile in turbocharged diesel engines.

Re: Diesel cars can be banned from German cities, court rules

#327
post #282

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, this is how I try to argue with my dad. And then I pick one little example, calculate what is needed and figure - no, it's just impossible. If you know German, there is a video on what it costs to use wind and solar energy in Germany's energy network: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rV_0uHP3BDY This isn't news for the Germany's big four power grid operators: https://www.heise.de/newsticker/meldung/Stromnetz-unte…

What do you think we should do to replace fossil fuels?

I wish we could replace them. I don't see it yet. I doubt it will be possible in the next 20 years.

The diesel scandal is the following: people like to drive big cars like SUVs. A car in the 90s weighed maybe 500kg. Now a new SUV weighs 3t. To drive this, you have to have a diesel engine. A diesel engine can be relatively environmental friendly if you add enough AdBlue. But AdBlue isn't cheap and the AdBlue tank takes up space in the car. So VW, Bosch, and the other German car manufacturers switched of the AdBlue as soon as the car detects it's not in a testing setup.

We were more environmental friendly in the 90s only because our cars didn't weigh as much.

So, can we replace fossil fuels in energy generators?

A lot of countries like Brazil build new nuclear reactors to generate energy. The problem is, the waste is going no where. Maybe it's possible to send the waste to the backside of the moon, but the risk of an exploding rocket seems too high for me.

Solar energy does generate only energy when the sun is shining. That's maybe 12h a day and it depends a lot on the location on earth surface. The problem of storage and transportation of energy isn't solved yet.

Wind energy is massively changing. It can generate a lot of energy in a short time period and the next week there isn't even a breeze. It's hard to switch power plants on and off as fast as the wind is changing.

I was thinking, there should be Tesla Power Walls or similar technology next to decentralized wind and solar energy generators. But I really doubt it is possible to switch of all fossil energy.

Re: Diesel cars can be banned from German cities, court rules

#328

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Also, the greek island of Spetses https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spetses

Spetses is not car-free per se. You can't bring your car on the island as a visitor - but people who live there can have a car (+ taxis & buses)

Of course, but cars are not allowed in the town of Spetses where almost all of the population of the island resides. I've been there before some years and it was great!

Taxis buses and other cars are used for transportation to remote areas of the island.

Re: Diesel cars can be banned from German cities, court rules

#329
post #282

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What do you think we should do to replace fossil fuels?

I wish we could replace them. I don't see it yet. I doubt it will be possible in the next 20 years. The diesel scandal is the following: people like to drive big cars like SUVs. A car in the 90s weighed maybe 500kg. Now a new SUV weighs 3t. To drive this, you have to have a diesel engine. A diesel engine can be relatively environmental friendly if you add enough AdBlue. But AdBlue isn't cheap and the AdBlue tank take…

It's not optional to switch, and soon. The next 20 years will be too long. (Some niche cases can take longer to switch, of course, and that's fine.) If it's not possible we have the options of either using less or suffering massive problems in the medium-term future, which will cost a lot more.

I'm not sure what to do about this. Lobbying and investing in renewable research might not be enough.. but is there anything else really?

Re: Diesel cars can be banned from German cities, court rules

#330
post #255

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Diesels have better torque, which is mostly what feels like "power." Few people travel at top speed, so lower horsepower does not have the same feeling to the driver as high torque.

Diesels have literally the worst powerband for automobiles, especially mated to automatic transmissions. Diesels have power down low in the RPMs, but that's never where you are when you need power. When you need to accelerate, you floor the throttle and the transmission downshifts into the upper RPMs. They are good for accelerating 0-40, but they are significantly slower at 40+ -- which is where most people accelerat…

:) Please specify when you talk about small diesels. Non of that 0-40 acceleration is true for the 535 I mentioned in my previous comment.
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