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German court rules Facebook use of personal data illegal

reuters.com

321–330 of 404 posts

Re: German court rules Facebook use of personal data illegal

#321

I think if I was creating a new social media website today I'd probably not set up any presence in the EU. The sheer quantity of fines for vaguely specified "crimes" being handed out makes it a deeply unattractive business environment and it seems to be getting worse. I remember when Facebook was new, one of its big competitive advantages was its easy and comprehensive privacy controls. I didn't see other social netw…

From the other side of the coin, I think if your business model is based on the exploitation of peoples data, the EU doesn't want your 'SV disruption'. From https://www.wired.com/story/inside-facebook-mark-zuckerberg-... it would appear that these lessons are being learned, somewhat slowly.

An inteesting article, certainly, but it buries a rather explosive accusation:

    Zuckerberg had reason to take the meeting (with 
    Rupert Murdoch) especially seriously, according 
    to a former Facebook executive, because he had 
    firsthand knowledge of Murdoch’s skill in the 
    dark arts. Back in 2007, Facebook had come under 
    criticism from 49 state attorneys general for 
    failing to protect young Facebook users from 
    sexual predators and inappropriate content. 
    Concerned parents had written to Connecticut 
    attorney general Richard Blumenthal, who opened 
    an investigation, and to The New York Times, 
    which published a story. But according to a 
    former Facebook executive in a position to 
    know, the company believed that many of the 
    Facebook accounts and the predatory behavior 
    the letters referenced were fakes, traceable 
    to News Corp lawyers or others working for  
    Murdoch, who owned Facebook’s biggest competitor,
    MySpace. “We traced the creation of the Facebook 
    accounts to IP addresses at the Apple store a 
    block away from the MySpace offices in Santa 
    Monica,” the executive says. “Facebook then traced 
    interactions with those accounts to News Corp lawyers. 
    When it comes to Facebook, Murdoch has been playing 
    every angle he can for a long time.” (Both News Corp and 
    its spinoff 21st Century Fox declined to comment.)
Does anyone have any good pointers for further reading on this? If I were Mark Zuckerberg and some fossilized ink-stained wretch like Murdoch tried to weaponize a state attorney general against my company, there would be very serious consequences.

Re: German court rules Facebook use of personal data illegal

#322
post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Deeply unattractive business environment for companies exploiting people's personal data without their consent? Good.

If you volunteer your data to Facebook I have a hard time considering you to have been “exploited.”

My usage isn't voluntary. I am pressured. There are friends I can't reach other ways.

Re: German court rules Facebook use of personal data illegal

#323
post #246

That article doesn't summarize the ruling very well. Here's a short tl;dr of the actual ruling[0]: Part A: Privacy settings - Facebook tried to claim that it is only subject to Irish law. Court disagrees since Facebook operates in Germany, so local law applies. [side note: this kind of confusion is exactly why the GDPR is needed] - Law states that the imprint must be "easily" accessible. Court found this not to be th…

It’s interesting...implementing these changes won’t hurt Facebook...but they will kill any competition from other (smaller) players. This ruling will in the end contribute to Facebooks long term success and will cement its market position.

What? How so?

Re: German court rules Facebook use of personal data illegal

#324
post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

30 years ago everyone had the freedom to choose between restaurants that allow smoking and those that don’t — except that no businesses wanted to provide the latter. Without government intervention we’d still be wading through cigarette smoke in bars. Facebook’s reckless use of private data is a public hazard not unlike passive smoking. It’s not going to be solved by an asymmetric fake free market where customers are…

Are you referring to Germany or the US? In my recollection, in the US, 30 years ago restaurants had "smoking" and "non-smoking" sections. And non-smokers sometimes complained bitterly about smoke wafting into the "non-smoking" section. Which in fact led to some restaurants being all non-smoking before government intervention. The NY statewide ban on smoking in workplaces was only passed 15 years ago. I don't know abo…

Pretty sure the parent comment is talking about Germany.

Smoking bans in restaurants and bars have made a significant difference in most states.

If I remember correctly, we had a non-binding agreement between the health ministry and our national restaurant and hotel organisation at first, but this did not change much.

Even most smokers I know agree that the laws were necessary, and that they are thankful for them because otherwise they would not go outside to smoke.

Re: German court rules Facebook use of personal data illegal

#325
post #59
post #18

Wait until GDPR is in place in May and German and other EU courts will rule FB to death. IDK how FB will ever be compliant with GDPR and survive that huge upcoming fines in the long term or in the worst case the withdrawal from these markets.

The GDPR isn't actually as bad as people claim. The law is actually pretty reasonable. It is the result of years of discussion and deliberation. In fact, privacy watchdogs are complaining that it doesn't go far enough - it leaves plenty of holes. Most of the GDPR is about informed consent, having a valid reason for processing personal data and individual rights. Facebook will do just fine, they had years to prepare a…

GDPR is reasonable. How Facebook handles user data is not.

I'm sure, they'll mostly ignore the law at first, and if they get sued, they'll claim having a legitimate interest [1], but that will be their strategy, because actually complying with the law voluntarily would likely cost them more.

And yes, especially Germany already had a very similar law in place, but Facebook did not actually need to keep to it most of the time, because they were operating from Ireland. GDPR does not care where you're operating from. The fines would have also not been much more than operational costs for Facebook (the highest fine placed in Germany for privacy violations so far is at 300,000€).

[1] section 1 f): https://gdpr-info.eu/art-6-gdpr/

Re: German court rules Facebook use of personal data illegal

#326

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was hypothesising Facebook being unreasonable. And their business model could very well be incompatible with GDPR. They're an ad company that feeds on personal data. I'm not sure they can get the informed consent of most of their users for this. Simply put, GDPR could be reasonable and sue Facebook to death (at least within its borders).

But that would not be a politically acceptable outcome. There will be so unbelievably many free votes for the "Bring Facebook back" party that they will barely need to campaign. Also, by the way, this won't bring about the development of "our own" alternatives. Being European doesn't confer any particular skills required to build a GDPR-compatible Facebook, if Facebook itself can't even build it themselves.

> There will be so unbelievably many free votes for the "Bring Facebook back" party that they will barely need to campaign.

Hence my predicting that traditional media would gang up against Facebook. It wouldn't be the first time there's a disconnect between television and the people. (Who's right is a separate issue.)

Re: German court rules Facebook use of personal data illegal

#327
post #310
post #246

That article doesn't summarize the ruling very well. Here's a short tl;dr of the actual ruling[0]: Part A: Privacy settings - Facebook tried to claim that it is only subject to Irish law. Court disagrees since Facebook operates in Germany, so local law applies. [side note: this kind of confusion is exactly why the GDPR is needed] - Law states that the imprint must be "easily" accessible. Court found this not to be th…

> - It's OK to have the user agree that he's 13 years or older. Facebook cannot possibly check whether it's true, and the age doesn't matter anyway since the contract would be valid even if it weren't the case. I suspect this clause is actually due to US law (COPPA). Also, are kids allowed to agree to contracts in Germany? I believe that's not the case in the US.

I didn't understand that part as well.

As far as I know, kids can't sign contracts. They are not "geschäftsfähig" (business capable) until they are 18. Unless the parents explicitly agree to some contract.

Re: German court rules Facebook use of personal data illegal

#328
post #246

That article doesn't summarize the ruling very well. Here's a short tl;dr of the actual ruling[0]: Part A: Privacy settings - Facebook tried to claim that it is only subject to Irish law. Court disagrees since Facebook operates in Germany, so local law applies. [side note: this kind of confusion is exactly why the GDPR is needed] - Law states that the imprint must be "easily" accessible. Court found this not to be th…

It’s interesting...implementing these changes won’t hurt Facebook...but they will kill any competition from other (smaller) players. This ruling will in the end contribute to Facebooks long term success and will cement its market position.

Please explain how. It would certainly help privacy respecting competitors,it seems.

Re: German court rules Facebook use of personal data illegal

#329

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It'd be very cool if they lost the real-name policy.

I don’t think that’s gonna be enforceable...there is good reason for having a real name policy

What are those good reasons?

Re: German court rules Facebook use of personal data illegal

#330

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you referring to Germany or the US? In my recollection, in the US, 30 years ago restaurants had "smoking" and "non-smoking" sections. And non-smokers sometimes complained bitterly about smoke wafting into the "non-smoking" section. Which in fact led to some restaurants being all non-smoking before government intervention. The NY statewide ban on smoking in workplaces was only passed 15 years ago. I don't know abo…

Pretty sure the parent comment is talking about Germany. Smoking bans in restaurants and bars have made a significant difference in most states. If I remember correctly, we had a non-binding agreement between the health ministry and our national restaurant and hotel organisation at first, but this did not change much. Even most smokers I know agree that the laws were necessary, and that they are thankful for them bec…

Ok, however the context of this thread is the intersection of a multi-national American business with European courts, so basing one's opinion on the German experience exclusively to claim the obvious necessity of regulation is a bit German-centric.
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