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The Depression Thing

zachholman.com

321–330 of 348 posts

Re: The Depression Thing

#321
post #233

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've been in your shoes earlier this year. Or maybe I didn't come even close. I just want to say, I felt like what you describe. Then I read an article about the microbiome of dirt [0]. In the moment I read this on my smartphone I sat in the grass on a hill and I thought to myself, fuck it, what can go wrong, I'm going to stick my finger in dirt, put it in my mouth and eat a little bit of dirt. And that's what I did.…

Um. Please be careful, ingesting soil can lead to stuff like Botulism. As for the GP - I've also been there, for many years. I'm not going to suggest treatments because you have a whole thread full of it, and it wouldn't do a damn bit of good unless you happen to be in the right state of mind for it anyhow. I don't know you, but if you do happen to need someone to chat to, I'm down.

No it can't, botulism happens under anaerobical conditions. Two people doing the same mistake, where does this misconception come from ?! Maybe you guys are mixing it up with tetanus, which can indeed be contracted through soil on a wound (because of Clostridium tetani).

Re: The Depression Thing

#322
What worked for me was a combination of things:

Physical exercise. 2 years ago I got scared because my bad back condition got worse. When I went to a therapy, I noticed exercises (with swiss ball) seemed to help me the most. I'm supposed to do them daily (they take 40 minutes each time), but by trial and error I figured out 4 is the sweet spot. Anything more and I get overtraining.

To answer the article: how do you even start ? You simply start small. Performing the required number of repetitions is not important at all, and sometimes even counterproductive because you're tempted to use bad form to achieve your goal. Keeping your schedule is SUPER important. Exercise yields best results when it's regular, and this in turn tadaa!! builds character. No, really. I would argue working out even a little is more about willpower than anything else. Then I started adding other exercises to feed my vanity and make up for my insecurities. I always looked like a nerd. I added push-ups. Then squats (both 3 times per week). Quick tip: wall facing squats make it impossible to cheat. If you can't do them, do some stretching exercises and look up some progression exercices. I don't recommend running to beginners because everyone can do running half-assedly, but you need good technique to avoid permanent injury. I got permanent injury and squats compensate for this. I have an exoskeleton of muscles around my spine and knee now. I recommend cycling to beginners. Much harder to get an injury unless you like pedalling downhill (all the cases where I had an accident where while pedalling downhill).

But this post already looks depth-first while my escape from the black hole was breadth-first.

Music. I always liked music very much. Finding new music you like provides a short mood boost. I found funk. The trouble with music is searching for something you like requires time, and I need novelty constanty. But every little bit helps.

Friends. If you don't have friends, and it's safe to say I didn't 2 years ago, go somewhere where people with similar interests gather. I found a place where people play board games. A small monthly fee and you can play one of nearly hundred board games with other male nerds. Board games are similar to computer games, but thrive on innovation in game mechanic department. Very good if you like strategy games. Board games are the most refined kind of multiplayer game, they are designed to be finished in one seating and the better ones are built about interesting decisions. Unlike with modern multiplayer where you are shoveled around with complete strangers by a matchmaking system, you get to play with the same group. It's like dedicated servers are back ! Even better, only one person needs to own a board game. It's like StarCraft 1 multiplayer "Spawn" feature is back!! Also, you get to see and meet people, and disconnects are very rare because it's more awkward to disconnect from people you're seeing face to face. No one would like to play with that jerk again. Automatic self-moderation system ! No need to appoint moderators, referees or implement a voting system that 2 pals can abuse to kick you because you killed them, or that never gets through because it needs 50%+ people and they're happy you're stuck with a bad teammate because it will make them win. I still don't have many friends, and I only really meet them every Wednesday - but every little bit helps.

Get out of your flat. Simply go for a walk and see a changing view instead of the same 4 walls. No need to talk to anyone. This always helped me for a short while. Every little bit helps.

Hypericum pills. Herbal meds that according to some clinical tests are as effective as synthetic meds, with much fewer side effects. Notably, they don't cloud your thoughts, which is important for a programmer. The one notable downside is phototoxicity. You want to stay away from sunlight, or you'll get permanent dark spots on skin. I accomplish this by covering my skin. I understand this is not an option in Australia, but every little bit helps. Note: for hypericum you want either pills, or oil/alcohol based extracts, because the key component doesn't dissolve in water. Don't waste money on "tea".

Reading books, watching a movie. There are times when my anxiety overpowers me and I can't even focus on that, but a good movie puts me in a good mood and I don't necessarily mean a movie with a good ending.

Meditation. Supposedly improves concentration, memory and stress resistance by 30-40%ish. Just what I need. I only recently started so it's hard to estimate if it's helping me, but it's free and harmless and easy. 2 times a day, 15 minutes. You simply go into standby mode, close your eyes, try to throw out all thoughts from your mind. In particular, don't think about the past and don't make plans. If you must focus on something, focus on the present, like your breath or sounds (but human speech is very distracting). Every little bit helps.

Merely reading about your condition can be helpful. I started to feel better and gradually solve my problems once I read a bit about my behavior and motivation. It's like some barriers fade away and you slowly start exploring areas of your life you've never tried, things you were too shy to try, etc. It takes time.

Tips on sleep: I have an alarm set to 23:00 every day. When it rings, I go to bed. Actually recently I started going to bed even earlier. Turn off TV if you have one, stay away from computer monitor, smartphones, tablets. There's something about the blue light they emit that makes people not realize how tired they are. When I go to bed, I read a book or a newspaper. This doesn't interfere with my natural exhaustion sensor and the extra mental fatigue helps me fall asleep faster. If I have insomnia and really can't fall asleep, I turn on the light and read. Then I try going to sleep 1 hour later or so. If you still can't sleep, just lie with eyes closed and try to relax. Lying with eyes closed will still make you much more fresh in the morning than going out of bed or watching something and pretending you had no rest.

Also, I don't remember the source, but a recent study I read about found that sugar intake makes you feel better in the short run but causes anxiety and depression the long run. Foul stuff!

To do all these things (acting is the hardest part of depression) I used observation and logic. Observation to identify activities that make me feel marginally better. Logic, to tell myself it will be worse if I never do them. See, it's like the female zombie in Return of the Living Dead says. You don't eat brains to feel good. You do that to make the pain go away. Do tell yourself it will make the pain go away, just a little. Keep repeating that.

Re: The Depression Thing

#323
I am diagnosed with severe depression recently. I am also an ADHD.

Depression is a disease and I never dealt with it until now.

I seek help from a good psychiatrist. And he has given me some great advice to fight depression and anxiety.

1. Exercise: I am running 3Kms daily. And its helping me alot. I feel fresh. I feel the strength in the body. The Dr. said to me that if your body is strong, your mind will be strong too. And it will help you distract yourself from depressive thoughts.

2. Healthy Meals: Cut sugar. Cut soft-drinks. Eat fish, vegetables, do proper breakfast.

Re: The Depression Thing

#324
post #150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And if you're doing all this and still depressed, there's no solution and you should kill yourself. That's how I read advice like yours when I was a college athlete. Fortunately, instead of walking in front of a bus I went to a doctor and got antidepressants, which helped tremendously.

Advice to seek professional help has exactly the same effect for people like me, for whom it makes things much worse. From my point of view it’s just the “safe” advice to give in public, because it has the argument from authority going for it. People with major depression want to kill ourselves anyway. I don’t really see any style of tempered advice as being harmful in itself. What’s really harmful is socially pressu…

I 100% do not mean to point this at you in particular. I do not know your situation. But, in a general sense, a lot of the reason for the pressure is because these thing take time. There is no magic cure.

Going to a mental health professional requires time to see results. It also requires being with the right person. Medication won't instantly make you feel better (for longer than the short term), it requires the correct dosage, correct type, etc. The "working out, eating right, plenty of sleep" method may show results but it also takes a lot of time and persistence to see those results.

I am not saying that any of these solutions will work for everyone. I am just saying that any of these solutions takes trial and error. Some people go see a therapist once, don't make a connection, and declare that it doesn't work for them. It will take time. It is a process. Again, everyone is different and need to find what works for them, but whatever it is, they need to stick with it. I know it can be overbearing, but it comes from a place of compassion and concern. No one who cares about you wants to see you depressed. How would you prefer that they approach it?

Re: The Depression Thing

#325
post #248

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Here is where the benefits of promoting exercise far outweigh any risks that people who exercise may experience. There is no need to hedge here. Exercise might not cure your depression or even help it, but in general, exercise has been shown over and over again to be one of the most effective things that you can do for mental and physical health.

I can't really agree with this, there are definitely lots of negative avenues from exercise if not done right. Generally, hopefully, most people will do exercise more or less "right", but this is not a safe assumption.

That could be said of almost any healthy thing.

Re: The Depression Thing

#326
post #316
post #146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Because part of depression is self pity. Are you sure you are not one of those people who confuse being moody with clinically depressed? Self pity isn't really high on the list of symptoms.

Looking over the list of symptoms, I definitely had that. Very severe in my teens, got better in college, and now it rarely bothers me. Improvement seems to have come from numerous changes to my life, including the whole exercising thing. Being really fit was a big confidence boost, though I don't need to remain at that level of fitness to retain the benefits. But the biggest impact was my worldview and how it has ch…

Then you never had clinical depression.

Re: The Depression Thing

#327
In my experience, exercise was helpful, but mostly only after I realized what I could learn about myself from it. Primarily, it allowed me to better understand and manage 2 types of “automatic” thought processes that I have constantly: (1) Intrusive Thoughts - unpleasant thoughts that pop into my head (2) Motivated Reasoning - mind trying to draw logical but untrue conclusions in line with my current feelings at the time

As an example of how the 2 may combine in normal life, an internal dialogue might look like this: (1) Intrusive thought: “I can’t accomplish this goal” (2) Motivated reasoning: “Because I’m a failure and I’m worthless” The most insidious thing is that these motivated conclusions feel so right, feel so self evident.

With exercise, similar thought processes will arise. The difference is, because you are dealing with a simple physical task, there is the possibility of immediate physical evidence to demonstrate to yourself your intrusive thought, and the reasoning for it, are simply wrong.

The analogous thought processes during exercise might look like this: (1) Intrusive thought: “I can’t finish this workout” (2) Motivated reasoning: “Because I’m not in good enough shape and it hurts too much, I can’t take it, I need to stop” There is a point where I feel like I want to stop, and at first it seems so reasonable to stop, to not overwork myself and hurt myself. But if I push on past that point, there is a realization “Huh - I’m still here, I’m still doing this, I thought I didn’t have it in me, but irrefutably I did because I am here still doing this after I thought I was done.”

I always thought I was naturally unathletic; I was never good at sports and hated exercise until I became an adult. Looking back now, I realized the only reason I was unathletic was because I believed I was, and my power of belief made it a reality.

As I’ve grown older, the intrusive thoughts and motivated reasoning are still here, but where in the past they stopped me dead in my tracks, now I have learned to see them for what they are and not let them define me.

Everyone has different experiences, and I mean no disrespect to anyone who hasn’t found value in exercise; I believe there are many ways to learn these types of lessons; for me, it just happened to be exercise, but it could have been anything.

Re: The Depression Thing

#328
post #239

I love how he belittles exercise as a cure. Talk about closed mindedness and stupidity. Just because it didn't work for him doesn't mean it should be dismissed. It's the only thing that worked for me and many others. I'm really not even sure wtf this ridiculous article is saying. Anyway, what I'm saying is that belittling something that has been proven to help many people is stupid and even dangerous. Fuck medicine,…

Please do not post like this on Hacker News again. We're here for civil, substantive discussion in which we have a hope of learning something—anything at all—and "Fuck X" is old news.

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

Re: The Depression Thing

#329
post #150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Advice to seek professional help has exactly the same effect for people like me, for whom it makes things much worse. From my point of view it’s just the “safe” advice to give in public, because it has the argument from authority going for it. People with major depression want to kill ourselves anyway. I don’t really see any style of tempered advice as being harmful in itself. What’s really harmful is socially pressu…

I 100% do not mean to point this at you in particular. I do not know your situation. But, in a general sense, a lot of the reason for the pressure is because these thing take time. There is no magic cure. Going to a mental health professional requires time to see results. It also requires being with the right person. Medication won't instantly make you feel better (for longer than the short term), it requires the cor…

In my case, time and patience could not have been the problem, except in the unprovable Russell's Teapot sense. And that is the problem. I'd prefer that people did not place unwarranted high confidence in the medical model, such that after seeing 20 therapist, and trying 20 medications that all made you sick or did nothing, people were still saying, "But maybe the next one will work."

Re: The Depression Thing

#330
post #297

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I never said it was my job, but I know people whose job it is to help (though as someone who is planning to match to a psychiatry residency this coming year, my job will be to help people with depression, among other things). You are right in that when offering advice one needs to be mindful in how they frame it, something that I find much easier to do in person than in an anonymous online forum, hence me not able to…

Do you see value to asking if a person wants help before offering advice? Is that something you usually do?

Of course I see the value to asking a person if they want help before offering advice. I don't go around telling random people around me to go exercise and meditate more. I don't even tell that to friends who I suspect might benefit from it. When I am on an internet forum talking about mental health, I do bring it up because the context seemed perfectly fine. I also bring up those topics when I am having conversations about health, which I have regularly, but in a very general manner... like recently with a friend I had a conversation about how mindfulness seems to be a very effective way to manage emotions and was asking for feedback on ways to make it more appealing to people.

Do you see the value in advocating people prioritize their diet, sleep habits, exercise, and mindfulness more (while also trying to provide tangible ways they can do that)? Do you see the value in making it seem OK for people to go seek out therapy, and "normalizing" conversations about it? Because I notice there is still this ridiculous stigma many people have when it comes to seeking help for mental health, which prevents people from doing so, or even having conversations about it. And having a conversation about it is all I am trying to do here. I hope you have noticed that throughout this discussion I never gave my advice to you or anyone else on how they should deal with their depression.

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