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Apache Foundation disallows use of the Facebook “BSD+Patent” license

issues.apache.org

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Re: Apache Foundation disallows use of the Facebook “BSD+Patent” license

#321

Post by Lazare »

developit wrote: post #281
Lazare wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you're concerned about React, then Preact is actually significantly worse. Consider: The risk for React is based on 1) speculation that Facebook has patents on core React concepts and 2) the fact that patent grant that comes with React terminates in some situations if you end up in conflict with Facebook. So for safety, it might be better to make sure you use code that Facebook has no patents on, which (if (1) abo…

This is not true, since Preact only implements the same software interface. Its internals are fundamentally different and not a derivative work. Software interfaces cannot be patented - this has been upheld in every court, most recently in Google V Oracle.

> Its internals are fundamentally different and not a derivative work.

That would be a strong defence to a copyright claim. We're talking about patents, where there is no concept of "derivative works", and what matters isn't implementations but broad concepts.

> Software interfaces cannot be patented

Right, but what makes Preact concerning isn't that it offers the same API, but that it is built using the same underlying concepts.

Preact renders independent, encapsulated, nested, functional-ish components, usually but not always written in JSX, into a virtual DOM. Components are rerendered to the virtual DOM when their inputs change, and then diffing is used to efficiently sync the virtual DOM with the browser DOM.

If Facebook has some sort of patent covering the virtual DOM (although thankfully as far as I know, they don't), it's hard to see how it would not also cover Preact. And this is true even if, as I assume is the case, Preact shares 0 lines of code with React.

Edit: To be clear, I don't believe the patent situation is concerning, I think Preact is a great project, and I may well be using it in production soon. But if I was worried about Facebook's patent portfolio, I would be worried about using Preact.

Re: Apache Foundation disallows use of the Facebook “BSD+Patent” license

#322

Post by tomelders »

Lazare wrote: post #126
afro88 wrote: post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Apologies for the dumb question, but what rights do you lose if the patent license is terminated? I mean, if you can use the software without the patent license, what is the patent license giving you?

> I mean, if you can use the software without the patent license, what is the patent license giving you? Facebook may or may not have some patents covering concepts or algorithms used in React. If they do (nobody is aware of any), then they could sue you for using React, or any other framework which uses the same underlying concepts (eg, Preact, maybe Vue, possibly Angular 2.x, etc., depending on what the patents cov…

I think the patent grant applies to everything you make, not just anything involving react.

Re: Apache Foundation disallows use of the Facebook “BSD+Patent” license

#324

Post by DannyBee »

objclxt wrote: post #72
DannyBee wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Considering almost every single large tech company is using React, presumably there's not much reason for concern? IANAL. " Actually, React is banned at a number of them, and i've personally discussed the issue with a number of fairly concerned counsel. So for better or for worse, i don't believe this is as simple as you make it out to be.

Off the top of my head big users of React include: * Apple (their entire dev docs site is built in it, and they've hosted Bay Area React user meet-ups) * Twitter (for their mobile web) * Microsoft (parts of Visual Studio use it) * Netflix (all over their frontend stack) ...as well as Dropbox, AirBnb, Venmo... So whilst I don't doubt you've discussed it with concerned counsel, there are huge corporations deploying Rea…

So, the OP had a question, which was ""Considering almost every single large tech company is using React, presumably there's not much reason for concern? IANAL. ""

I pointed out a number of these are concerned. There is in fact, reason for concern. That doesn't mean people won't use it, it just means they may be willing to take the risk. In fact, some of the counsel who are in fact, concerned, are on your list of big users!

If i have 100 billion dollars in the bank, i may be willing to take more risk around a random open source project than a small startup.

You don't seem to argue the original point at all (ie whether there is cause for concern), just point out "there are lots of people who use it who have extensive experience dealing with IP". I'm not sure how this means there should be no concern.

For example, i know at least a few of those corporations treat React very specially compared to most other open source (in how they use it, in how they try to segregate it, etc).

So yeah.

Re: Apache Foundation disallows use of the Facebook “BSD+Patent” license

#325

Post by malandrew »

matharmin wrote: post #200
captainmuon wrote: post #151

I think this is an overreaction (pun accidental). There are two things here: The copyright license, and the patent grant. Copyright applies to the concrete implementation. You have to agree to the license to be subject to it, and to legally use the code. A potential patent applies to any implementation. Even if you write a clean-room clone of React, if it uses the same patent, Facebook has a patent claim. But that me…

> A potential patent applies to any implementation. This is the point that most people seem to be missing, and it applies to much more than just React clones. If for Facebook has patents required for Virtual DOM, you are no better off if you use Vue.js or almost any other recent frontend framework. Just because you're using a project without the patents file doesn't mean those patents won't affect you.

Virtual DOM? Really?

Does anyone know what patents you are granted with the React license? Virtual DOM work that I and some colleagues did (and have patents for) pre-dates even the earliest internal Facebook experiments with the virtual DOM. We even spoke with the team at Facebook about our work well before React was even publicly released.

Re: Apache Foundation disallows use of the Facebook “BSD+Patent” license

#326

Post by Lazare »

tomelders wrote: post #322
Lazare wrote: post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I mean, if you can use the software without the patent license, what is the patent license giving you? Facebook may or may not have some patents covering concepts or algorithms used in React. If they do (nobody is aware of any), then they could sue you for using React, or any other framework which uses the same underlying concepts (eg, Preact, maybe Vue, possibly Angular 2.x, etc., depending on what the patents cov…

I think the patent grant applies to everything you make, not just anything involving react.

I'm not entirely sure what you're trying to say. The patent grant applies to Facebook's patents (if any) on the tech used in React.

> I think the patent grant applies to everything you make

Yes, if you have a patent grant from using React, it would be a defence from claims that things you have written that do not use React violate patents included in the grant.

Re: Apache Foundation disallows use of the Facebook “BSD+Patent” license

#327

Post by jbfr »

jjnoakes wrote: post #263
jbfr wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To add on to this list, even IBM with their large patent portfolio has a large number of teams deploying projects using React and other FB OSS technology. Disclaimer: I work for IBM.

Are those internal projects? Or external?

A good mix of both, surprisingly :)

To be concrete, IBM Watson has several products that leverage it that we sell to customers. For example, Watson Company Profiler, Watson Virtual Agent, Watson Discovery-related tools, and more.

Other organizations use it as well inside of IBM, like IBM Cloud and IBM Watson IoT, but I'm less familiar with their products off the top of my head.

Re: Apache Foundation disallows use of the Facebook “BSD+Patent” license

#328

Post by jbfr »

0xCMP wrote: post #310
jbfr wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To add on to this list, even IBM with their large patent portfolio has a large number of teams deploying projects using React and other FB OSS technology. Disclaimer: I work for IBM.

Yes and for a while it wasn't allowed at IBM either for the same reasons. The latest changes made it possible again which is why now they can/do use it. Source: Friends at IBM

This is absolutely correct. Before the end of last year, getting approval to use it was a very challenging process.

However, many teams went through the process in order to use it because of how valuable they believe React is to their products. Groups like IBM Watson IoT were fortunate enough to get portfolio-level clearances as well during that time.

Thankfully the process changed and many product teams add React to their list of libraries/frameworks to evaluate for their use-cases.

Re: Apache Foundation disallows use of the Facebook “BSD+Patent” license

#329

Post by pdfernhout »

numair wrote: post #18

Finally, people are beginning to realize the insanity of this entire PATENTS file situation! When I first brought up how misguided people were for embracing React and projects with this license, I was downvoted to hell on HN. But really, everyone, THINK ABOUT IT. This is a company that glorifies and celebrates IP theft from others, and lionizes their employees who successfully clone others’ projects. They’ve built th…

Yeah, I've been trying since November 2015 to get Automattic to understand the Facebook BSD+PATENTS problem with their Calypso frontend to WordPress that uses React. Just added another comment to the issue linking back to this story: "Replace React with Mithril for licensing reasons" https://github.com/Automattic/wp-calypso/issues/650#issuecom...

Of course, that issue was rapidly closed with essentially a "we don't think there is anything to worry about here" -- ignoring that even if Automattic may not have patents to defend, any of their customers who has patents could face an issue using Calypso.

All this is made more confusing by the fact that Facebook changed the React license over time from Apache to BSD+WORSE_PATENTS and then to BSD+LESS_BAD_PATENTS. And it looks like Automattic may have started using React when it was Apache licensed. So they got the rug pulled out from under them by trusting Facebook. I can wonder if their code might be considered to have grandfathered Apache patent licensing rights?

The Fuchsia license by Google (at least the one file I looked at) does not seem to me to be that different from other FOSS Patent licenses in that it is not as broad as Facebook's and just covers patent claims about Fuchsia itself. So I would not put it in the same category as React's much broader PATENT retaliation clause which applies for any disagreement over any patents with Facebook whether they are related to React or not. So it is more like if you sue about Fuchsia patents you can't use Fuchsia. https://github.com/fuchsia-mirror/magenta/blob/master/PATENT...

Re: Apache Foundation disallows use of the Facebook “BSD+Patent” license

#330

Post by pdfernhout »

bryanrasmussen wrote: post #147
cma wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yep, the patent grant is not fully reciprocal. As I understand it: To use React, you give Facebook permission to use any of your software patents (edit: all patents, even on a new jet engine) throughout your whole company. Facebook gives you permission to use only the software patents necessary for React. If your company sues Facebook over an unrelated software patent (edit: as above, any patent), your React license…

Facebook BSD+Patents FAQ https://code.facebook.com/pages/850928938376556

But what that FAQ does not answer is: "Does the additional patent grant in the Facebook BSD+Patents license terminate if I sue Facebook because they violated one of my patents unrelated to the Facebook software?"

The answer to that one is, unfortunately, yes.

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